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Inf COOP #1 server. Make it DTAS?
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zeep



Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 48

PostPosted: 2009-01-23 21:41:26    Post subject: Inf COOP #1 server. Make it DTAS? Reply with quote

Just a thought and please, feel free to flame me, i deserve it!

I was thinking maybe transform COOP server #1 into a DTAS for an x period of time.

BUT!!!

But with a strict set of rules that totally defeat TDM style playing.

- Defenders don't attack.

Ofcourse exeptions apply here: (E.g. When a last remaining defender is under attack and tries to outflank the attackers). I'm sure you can think of more examples where it's "ok" to leave the defending zone, in a responsible way. So no running towards attackers the minute the flag is placed. You do the math.

- No TDM style playing

Running around looking for kills is for mindless mercenaries.

No Ramboing, play as a team, try to COOPerate to win the round by tactics, not merely point-shoot.

Furthermore, if you ask me, ban all 40mm rounds, except smokes. That'll clear up the rounds nicely.

< Insert tutorial for UTcompass / ReportDirection here. >
All players at least make some usefull binds to help communication.



That about summs up what i have on my mind right now, feel free to suggest other things.

Oh and lastly, in case this server actually goes DTAS, everybody convince Psych and Stinky to play.

Bye!!
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Carpetsmoker



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 380
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands

PostPosted: 2009-01-23 21:53:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds nice, for how do you propose to exactly enforce these rules? We tried it with coop, and it does not work.
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Biene_Maja



Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 79
Location: Paderborn, Germany

PostPosted: 2009-01-23 22:27:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's really not easy to play with rules a public game. The best tactical games I played were with n1 at their trainings.

I hate DTAS which is played in a TDM way. I also hate when the attacker sees the flag and nades blind.

I like to play in a team but often I had a bad day at work (I like my job very much but kids are definetly pesky...) At this days give me a lot of monsters and my minimi (okay and my friends at teamspeak) Laughing

XploD also made a DTAS-server. I set it online when there are enough people for DTAS at the COOP-server which want to play DTAS. We played DTAS on saturday and on wednesday this week.

If you want I switch of XploD Coop and start DTAS for the weekend. Idea
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2009-01-23 22:51:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zeep, I've been asking for rules and restrictions for DTAS long time ago on BUF and, of course, was flamed...

I asked for:
- Restricting the use of the 40mm, never usable while jumping (probably no fireing at all when jumping), possibly only fireable from stationary or slow movement.
- Weapon control, no snipers for an obviously long range biased map (Road to Kandahar), or to somehow control weapons at all, the free for all selection was never right to me.
- Somehow to enforce cooperative play (probably suggested how, forgot).
- etc.

Taking away coop#1 doesn't sound nice, adding it like Xplod's has all game modes would be fine.
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EGM<P>



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 136
Location: ENSCHEDE-NETHERLANDS

PostPosted: 2009-01-24 08:06:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm restrictions in use of weapons, i think many soldiers have warm feelings for the commander that orders that.
sounds a bit like vietnam where pilots werent allowed to shoot at certain targets even when they were clearly hostile, because there might be russian advisors in the area wich could have been killed.
like argh the political implications Twisted Evil
im more like if it is of any use for the enemies war effort, shoot the shit out of it, but try to keep the collateral damage as low as possible.
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2009-01-24 08:39:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and by the way Zeep, we were playing DTAS this wednesday (stm included), but switched to co-op as soon as it became fox hunt. Very Happy
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XploD



Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 49
Location: Paderborn - Germany

PostPosted: 2009-01-24 11:52:57    Post subject: Re: Inf COOP #1 server. Make it DTAS? Reply with quote

zeep wrote:

- Defenders don't attack.

Hmmm. But what does that mean? Defender's aren't allowed to leave a range of 100m around the flag? And why not? So that the attackers may stay outside, nading the flag and kill everyone with a single nade?
To speak it out directly: I don't like sitting at the flag and wait til an attacker comes. Instead, I want to go and spot the enemy.

And due to the fact, that some gamers own 26" monitors and laser mice with adjustable resulitions, it is no longer fair to do "good-ol'" camper shootouts. Therefore, I would like to get behind their backs and show them what real warfare means. -> The enemy might be everywhere, and not just in front of you...

zeep wrote:

- No TDM style playing

Running around looking for kills is for mindless mercenaries.

This is an ego-shooter. What the hell do you think we are doing Smile Smile Smile
But I get your idea what you want to say...

zeep wrote:

Furthermore, if you ask me, ban all 40mm rounds, except smokes. That'll clear up the rounds nicely.

And take away one of the last effective weapons agains snipers and campers?

The problem is, that if you try to force someone to _your_ gameplay, there are always other players which are bared off by your restrictions.

For me, it's not a matter of DTAS or TDM. You can play both in a more tactical fassion. But to play tactically, I would prefere Teamspeak instead of keybinds which are most often used in such excessive manor so that usability is almost gone....

Feel free to join xplod.de DTAS server and TeamSpeak, and depending on the available players, we might play more tactically.

PS: And what about the players playing arcade style? Throw them from the server?

Regards
_X_
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-01-24 16:59:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought, but how is taking away 40mm and sniper rifles improving tactical play? It's actually a reduction of tactical possibilities available to the Inf players. There's already a strongly reduced ammount of tactical options in Inf, what's the point of further reducing it? Yes, the above can be abused, but taking them away would be like fighting speeding on roads by outlawing cars. Also why not ban smoke too? It can cause terrible framerates on older systems. What's next? Drums, machine guns, ACOGs, shotguns, any not standard military weapon? Go ahead and make a single loadout that must be used by everyone and it still won't solve the problem, because you can't enforce a playstyle - it's impossible.

Furthermore some of the rules you suggest (defending, no ramboing) are pretty situational and hard to even define - plus you can only enforce them via admin and kick.

Take a look at COOP and all the things that were done to improve cooperational gamestyle; what did it achieve? The majority of players (in my playing timeframe) join the server without restrictions and going rambo is still no problem on the restricted server - it'll never be when all you have to do after dieing is wait for the respawn..

Having tactical-heavy games needs the right people, not some arbitrary rules.
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Carpetsmoker



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 380
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands

PostPosted: 2009-01-24 17:45:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The problem is, that if you try to force someone to _your_ gameplay, there are always other players which are bared off by your restrictions.


No, the problem is that we have been forced to play *your* style for 9 years because there always seem to be a few non-tac players around.

Don't get me wrong, there is no `good' or `wrong' way to play infiltration, other than the way that you have fun with, so by all means, play how you like it.

But sometimes people like zeep or me want to play by our rules, if you want to play with us and obey these rules then that's great, if you don't, then please let us have our fun ... Very often (i.e. almost always) our games are disturbed and it's extremely frustrating.

As your server's MOTD says: ``Have fun and let others have fun!''
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XploD



Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 49
Location: Paderborn - Germany

PostPosted: 2009-01-24 19:30:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can offer you this:

Give me an ini file with all settings you want to play, and I will set up a server with your settings. If you want to have the admin password, this isn't a problem either.

My machine isn't strong enough for three inf servers, but it should be no problem to run your server on specific days and turn off the other(s).
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-01-25 14:22:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carpetsmoker wrote:
No, the problem is that we have been forced to play *your* style for 9 years because there always seem to be a few non-tac players around.


You've been having this problem since 2.75? Wow that's though [Note: I'm actually NOT being sarcastic here].

Well, the only solution in this case is to either set up your own (preferably password protected) server or get admin password for one existing server, which is distributed to the hardcore-tacs. Then engage the standard 3/1 stage warning system:
1.: When a suspected light- or non-tac joins clearly state what behavior is expected from him.
2.: If he obviously disbehaves give him a stern warning he'll be kicked if he doesn't adapt (Note: I wouldn't count trying and failing as disbehave, but then that's up to you).
3.: If he continues to disturb your gameplay tell him he'll be kicked (and perhaps the grounds on which he is kicked) and kick him. The reason for telling him before the kick is, that you don't get a "you've been kicked" message from UT/Inf when being kicked (don't ask me why I know that Mr. Green)
4.: If he rejoins to disturb your game make it a kick-ban (I know, it's IP dependent, so no real ban depending on the connection, but it might help for a longer time than just kicking).

So your best bet might be to take XploDs offer and try it this way, because I doubt you'll get everybody to play by your preferred rules just by asking.
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"This is a quasi-pleasant day. Almost not bad. Almost not bad at all..." Jon, 04.03.2009
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Carpetsmoker



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 380
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands

PostPosted: 2009-01-26 13:27:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snakeye wrote:
Carpetsmoker wrote:
No, the problem is that we have been forced to play *your* style for 9 years because there always seem to be a few non-tac players around.


You've been having this problem since 2.75? Wow that's though [Note: I'm actually NOT being sarcastic here].


Since 2.85, so that's 8 years (?).
I remember palying inf for the first time, every time at the spawn I saw a white thing and then I was dead -- I was a slow noob and didn't sprint from the spawn fast enough before it got blindnaded (No randomspawns back then).

Quote:
Well, the only solution in this case is to either set up your own (preferably password protected) server or get admin password for one existing server, which is distributed to the hardcore-tacs.


I don't want to exclude anyone from playing, I just want them to follow a few simple rules every once in a while. Anyone can do this, hard-core tac or otherwise.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-01-26 13:46:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carpetsmoker wrote:
I don't want to exclude anyone from playing, I just want them to follow a few simple rules every once in a while. Anyone can do this, hard-core tac or otherwise.

The question is not if everyone can do it, but if everyone will do so. If someone simply doesn't want to behave the way you want and refuses to move to another server you'll have to find a way to deal with it - basically you can leave the server yourself or let the other guy leave.

We have by now a sufficient ammount of servers to let the hardcore-tacs have a server where their playstyle is enforced - after all non-tacs seem to enforce their playstyle too. It's not about excluding people it's about excluding someone who doesn't respect that other people want to play their way from time to time too.
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"This is a quasi-pleasant day. Almost not bad. Almost not bad at all..." Jon, 04.03.2009
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zeep



Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 48

PostPosted: 2009-01-26 16:10:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading your replies is both interesting and depressing. Maybe this is never going to work..

My initial thoughts were of a passworded server, but that may be too harsch and secluding.

Back in the days of rav2 and dtas we had some very good tac games because everybody enjoyed that style of gameplay so no enforcing of any style was necessary. Every team played with the same mindset, tactical etc.. So i know it's possible to play dtas in a tactical style! Anyay, later when more and more tdm style players came in then the games got less fun for those who wanted tac.

I guess we need a tactical dtas server. It should say tactical in the name. Maybe even have console promts in-game like 'Play tactical' , 'No Rambo style' for those kids that need to be reminded and babysitted. Though, the whole idea of having to enforce a gamestyle makes me sick. Not because of the enforcing, but because of the kids that need that reminder in order to leave their run&gun mentality outside.


I don't want to come across elitist or claiming that tac is better than tdm. I just don't like that tdm style in inf and don't want it to be prominent in dtas games.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-01-26 16:37:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

zeep wrote:
I guess we need a tactical dtas server. It should say tactical in the name. Maybe even have console promts in-game like 'Play tactical' , 'No Rambo style' for those kids that need to be reminded and babysitted. Though, the whole idea of having to enforce a gamestyle makes me sick. Not because of the enforcing, but because of the kids that need that reminder in order to leave their run&gun mentality outside.

Yes, it should contain tactical in the server name, preferably even hardcore-tac. Yes it should contain the general rules on the server information page (F2?) and most preferably it should spawn a HUD message to everyone who joins to actually read those rules if not familiar with them. Unless you clearly state which behavior you want people won't know it - and face it: some people weren't born with a tac gene or common sense (including myself). The kick function is for everyone to rude or stupid to read and follow the rules.

I actually don't have any idea why it makes you sick that some people (not just kids I suppose) like and want to play TDM style; you won't ever end up in a world with people who only play tactical. Different people have different tastes. The key is to get those people with tastes other than yours not interfere with your fun - you wouldn't join a TDM server just to keep meddling with their playstyle either, would you?

From what I understood your problem was non-tacs ruining your games because they didn't adapt to a style of play a significant ammount of people wanted - or did I misunderstand that? Because if your problem is, that TDM style people exist who under no circumstance want to play tactical then there is no useful solution to your problem (unless you consider genocide Mr. Green). The point is, that there are people who ONLY want to play hardcore-tac and people who ONLY want to play TDM style*. Keep them on separate servers and things are fine - the fact it's easier to ruin a hardcore-tac game by going TDM style than vice versa makes it harder for the hardcore-tacs, so you'll need some admin-power to keep your server "clean". If you can't accept that I guess the only way is to not play Inf.

On a sidenote: I still don't get the reason for some of the rules - well, especially the 40mm one. Perhaps if some of the rules had a bit of background information it'd be easier to understand them (and I usually have an easier time following rules I understand).

*Of course there are also people who can adapt to both styles.
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