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Inf COOP #1 server. Make it DTAS?
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2009-01-26 16:39:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way Zeep, when arcade ruled the world, the arcaders stood the hell away from Lemon's IBT server.

IBT = antiarcade, they just hated it and that was good. Wink
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zeep



Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 48

PostPosted: 2009-01-26 17:06:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snakeye wrote:
..I actually don't have any idea why it makes you sick that some people (not just kids I suppose) like and want to play TDM style..

It doesn't. I said the idea of having to enforce a gamestyle makes me sick.
Snakeye wrote:
..so you'll need some admin-power to keep your server "clean"..

Probably yes.
Snakeye wrote:
..On a sidenote: I still don't get the reason for some of the rules - well, especially the 40mm one..

That just because of my hatred for getting nailed by 40mm rain, which is so unfulfilling. Wink

Hehe Psych. Seems long ago doesn't it?
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2009-01-26 17:22:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was cool, we played with Stinkmarder, Chuckus, Midwinter, you and others short before co-op, good games.

I was never big fan of IBT back then, but I loved what it achieved, to keep arcade players out of there, I guess an ammout of complexity is necessary for realistic gaming, maybe a topic to bring up at the Blackfoot forums.


By the way Zeep, my worsed nade death encounter that I still remember was on Arsenal, a WEED bunny hopped sidestrafing and launched a nade from hip while beeing in midair, got me right in the face. I could feel the anger and hate at that moment, hehe. Short after I suggested to limit grenade launcher to stationary use only.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-01-26 18:02:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

zeep wrote:
It doesn't. I said the idea of having to enforce a gamestyle makes me sick.

Then I possibly misread the below (emphasis mine). Probably something got lost in translation Wink
zeep wrote:
Though, the whole idea of having to enforce a gamestyle makes me sick. Not because of the enforcing, but because of the kids that need that reminder in order to leave their run&gun mentality outside.


zeep wrote:
That just because of my hatred for getting nailed by 40mm rain, which is so unfulfilling. Wink

Well, that's what 40mms are here for; I'm pretty sure lesser equipped forces meeting western armies don't like getting hit by aircraft, artillerly, tanks and IFVs - but war isn't about being fair, it's about winning.

It felt rather bad to lose yesterday because Crazy and I got nailed by the same 40mm - but then it was our bad tactics that allowed 2/3s of our team to get wasted by a single 40mm. It also felt bad sitting in a tunnel with nowhere to go and getting one M67 thrown into our position after the other, but if you where the attacker would you knowingly charge a position you could nade too? Don't get me wrong, I absolutely detested the few times someone just threw a nade after the start, not knowing where the enemy was - but pounding a known or suspected enemy position is applied tactics.
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Biene_Maja



Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 79
Location: Paderborn, Germany

PostPosted: 2009-01-26 19:12:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like to play DTAS in a tctical way but I'm not a good tactical player. I need the instructions from a teamleader.
I need to be more concentrated while playing tactical. (Shit, I haven't enough english words to write what I mean)

You could write and discuss about the problems or you could try to play on a "hardcore-tac server".

If I'm allowed to do I would try to play in a tactical way with you (but I need your instructions in an easy english) Embarassed
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zeep



Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 48

PostPosted: 2009-02-08 14:16:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psychomorph wrote:
I guess an ammout of complexity is necessary for realistic gaming, maybe a topic to bring up at the Blackfoot forums.

Well said. I agree.

Psychomorph wrote:

By the way Zeep, my worsed nade death encounter that I still remember was on Arsenal, a WEED bunny hopped sidestrafing and launched a nade from hip while beeing in midair, got me right in the face. I could feel the anger and hate at that moment, hehe. Short after I suggested to limit grenade launcher to stationary use only.

Ouch man i feel your pain..
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galzohar



Joined: 10 May 2009
Posts: 13

PostPosted: 2009-05-20 19:41:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

So why is there no DTAS server? What's the big advantage of TDM over DTAS? Unless you set DTAS with terrible settings (bad time limits or capture requirements), I don't see any gameplay advantage for TDM over DTAS. I just don't see how the "last player countdown" (statistically, that's what most of your time is spent on in TDM) game can be fun, whether you're that player or the one watching him.
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2009-05-20 20:46:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gal, XploD's has all gamemodes votable, Co-op, EAS, DTAS and TDM (or was it eas/dtas/tdm on XploD#1 and co-op on XploD#2?), it's just that people mostly play TDM overthere because it is simple and all this. We had few DTAS games on XploD's with the co-op crew, I remember.
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XploD



Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 49
Location: Paderborn - Germany

PostPosted: 2009-05-21 11:22:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

galzohar wrote:
So why is there no DTAS server? What's the big advantage of TDM over DTAS?

That's plain simple:
If there are any beginners on the server ( or players like most CETs Very Happy), there's no difference between them. In addition, it's boring if all players leave the flag and are running around and you have to defend the flag on your own.

As always, I can just offer this: Go on my server, ask for DTAS and check if other players are in the same mood. If the majority is for DTAS, the server might be switched.

(There are several players which are able to switch the server gamemodes: Firebird, Crazy_Karnickel, Osterhase, EGM, Mk82HD, Biene_Maja and me)
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galzohar



Joined: 10 May 2009
Posts: 13

PostPosted: 2009-05-21 14:39:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

The few times I did ask there were a few for it and a few against it. But I have a feeling the main cause for the "DTAS grudge" is because when you don't have a lot of players, having 2 players required to cap is just bad gameplay (and to some degree bad realism) - attackers simply have very little chance of winning by capping, which turns it into a TDM that greatly favors defenders. High time limits also turn it into a TDM, because attackers will camp and defenders will get bored and start running around looking for them. I've never seen your server as DTAS so I don't know what settings you use, but for DTAS to be fun the time limit needs to be short and it needs to only require 1 attacker to cap.

If people are not defending the flag, after they lose because it got captured they will start defending it. If people are not attacking the flag, when they lose due to time running out they will start attacking it.

Please just give it a try with DTAS set to only 1 player required to cap and ~3-5 min time limit. If people don't like it you can always change back.
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zeep



Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 48

PostPosted: 2009-05-21 14:53:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the problem with dtas matches is that many players just play tdm in dtas gamemode. The original dtas players, most anyway, preferred a more tactical SLOW match. I still do.

The anticipation of radio-ing an attack / defence, setting up perimeters and just playing more cooperative is so much better than just everybody running and gunning, using grenade launchers.

Not saying one is better than the other, to each his own. I just think the run/gun gamestyle sucks.
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galzohar



Joined: 10 May 2009
Posts: 13

PostPosted: 2009-05-21 18:32:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I do prefer playing as a team in DTAS, even a DTAS where people aren't working together is better than TDM, because you actually have some place you actually need to attack/defend, and thus aren't just playing "run around and hope you find someone to kill".

As for "slow", it depends how you define "slow". The way TDM currently plays out (if you have at least 1 camper on the server, though on some maps even that is not necessary) is that most of the time is spent with that last player looking for that last player, which is both slow and pointless - theoretically they might never find each other, and practically sometimes they don't even try. It ends up being much slower than DTAS, assuming you don't provide an excessive time limit and have campers on assault. Good tactical play and slow play is not the same thing, at least not IRL and not in a realistic game when you're playing against humans in a game type that does not encourage camping.

Even if people don't want to use any real strategy/tactic/cooperation, DTAS is still much more playable than TDM. But the settings have to be only 1 capper required and a short (~3-5 min) time limit.

TDM has no real strategy, as "trying to win" and "trying to end the round" are often extremely contradictory, as we all know waiting for someone to come into your line of fire gives you a better chance of killing him than walking into his. In DTAS, though, they aren't - if you're on attack you lose when time runs out, and if you're on defense you lose if you're not protecting the objective from capture. This forces the game to actually play out rather than turn into a camp fest, camper hunt, or just some random 2 players looking for each other on a big map without finding.
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Midwinter



Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Posts: 20
Location: Valencia, Spain

PostPosted: 2009-05-22 16:25:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gal, while I agree on some points in your post, the duration of DTAS rounds is not one of them Wink. I like to take my time when attacking, and sometimes if one way is well defended i will try an alternative route. With 3 minutes, we almost would need to run towards the flag, which (IMHO) is not a "good thing" (tm)

P.S. I miss the good ol' DTAS times and as I see, Zeep does, too :p
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galzohar



Joined: 10 May 2009
Posts: 13

PostPosted: 2009-05-22 18:05:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

It really depends on the map size. On some maps you can run around the map 3 times in 3 minutes. But bigger maps definitely need more. However practically no maps need more than 5 minutes (and if they do they're too big to be placed on a server anyway).

Games that are too long are boring - nobody likes to sit around and wait for someone to attack, and nobody likes walking around for a long time without any chance of seeing any enemy defenders.

Taking your time is one thing, enforcing boredom is another. A good balance must be made. Getting enough time to try another route is fine, but getting enough time so that you can camp for a few minutes hoping for defenders to get bored and come to you and then only attack when there are 60s left because that's ally ou really need is NOT fine, which is what a short time limit is meant to fix.

Besides, if you 3 minutes is short, how come in TDM when there are only 2 ppl left and there is a "3 min last player countdown" they don't seem to be sprinting around trying to find each other? Plus on the small maps they usually do find each other before the 3 minutes are up, and that's without knowing where the other person is, unlike DTAS. Some maps may need up to 5 minutes, yes, but anything more is just asking for a boring game, and you really don't need more than 5 minutes to get a good, teamplay-ish assault done.

It's not like it's unrealistic to have a short time limit either - you can come up with endless RL scenarios where you only have X time to complete your mission.

Even with beginners on the server, there is one big difference between DTAS and TDM - in DTAS there's a pre-defined team that know they'll lose if they run out of time, and another team that knows the other team has to reach the objective within that time if they want to win. No way to drag the game on for as much as <last player countdown> X <number of players>. Even having a 3 minute last player countdown tick down twice is very frustrating, for both the living and the dead players. This doesn't happen with a 3~5 minute DTAS.
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zeep



Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 48

PostPosted: 2009-05-23 12:14:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

galzohar wrote:
.. boring - nobody likes to sit around and wait for someone to attack, and nobody likes walking around for a long time without any chance of seeing any enemy defenders...

Why do you find it boring? Because when you're dead you have to wait for the remaining guys to either cap, kill or get killed. So basically you want faster respawns which -in my opinion- is what feeds the run&gun gamestyle.

Sorry but you guys go ahead and play TDM with a flag. That's what it boils down to anyway. It's no use (for me) to promote a slower gamestyle if there are no likeminded players backing it. No harm done.

Mid, yep i do too. Seen my thread in OffTopic? I'm (attemting) to make a COD4 mod with DTAS gamestyle. When i reach a playable version i'm gonna get Rasa and Crowze onboard. If it turns out fun maybe you can buy COD4 too.
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