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Inf COOP #1 server. Make it DTAS?
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galzohar



Joined: 10 May 2009
Posts: 13

PostPosted: 2009-05-23 19:54:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said, there is a difference between slow and plain out "camping because I have the time". I don't mind waiting for people to play when I'm dead, but when they're not playing it's pretty frustrating. I don't mind watching someone take his time to make the attack, but I don't want to sit there and watch someone playing "I sit on X position waiting for some defender to pass by until time runs out", which is the main killer of any game type, be it TDM or DTAS or anything else.

Like I said, tactical and slow are 2 different things. Even IRL tactics are not always done slowly (in fact, they often aren't). I'm not saying there should be a time limit that leaves you with no option but running straight at the flag. But if the time limit is longer than what's needed for a reasonable assault, then it'll turn into a campfest, a TDM, or any combination of the 2. I don't want a run&gun game, I want a game where tactics can be applied, but I also want a game that will actually have good gameplay wherever that can be achieved without hurting realism.

Besides, I don't see how TDM is any faster than DTAS, considering the huge % of the time that is spent on "player X and player Y are currently looking for each other and can't find. Stand by."
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zeep



Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 48

PostPosted: 2009-05-23 21:03:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

galzohar wrote:
Like I said, there is a difference between slow and plain out "camping because I have the time".... if the time limit is longer than what's needed for a reasonable assault, then it'll turn into a campfest, a TDM, or any combination of the 2.

We never did that. 'Camping because i have the time'.. That's just silly. Why would we play that way?? Probably dumb ass kids when you see such behaviour.

galzohar wrote:
..Besides, I don't see how TDM is any faster than DTAS, considering the huge % of the time that is spent on "player X and player Y are currently looking for each other and can't find. Stand by."

That's because they do not have an objective in-game other than "find other player and shoot". DTAS gives you an objective so finding the other player is not that hard, especially not the last one!

Look, i understand what you're after, but for good DTAS matches, a timelimit below 5 minutes is bad. It will only really work in smaller maps... that quite possibly fuel more TDM behaviour.

I think we had like 12 minutes back then. Probably even more than that.
Also, IIRC the timelimit was dynamic, in big maps it went up.
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galzohar



Joined: 10 May 2009
Posts: 13

PostPosted: 2009-05-23 23:59:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That's because they do not have an objective in-game other than "find other player and shoot". DTAS gives you an objective so finding the other player is not that hard, especially not the last one!

That's exactly why I'm saying DTAS is more playable than TDM regardless of what kind of players you have on the server.


With current amount of players usually on servers big maps are not feasible. But even on the most time-demanding maps in America's Army 10 minutes felt like an eternity, and the only reason games lasted so long was because it was impossible for attack to make any move without dying - and they'd still lose in the end. Shortening the time limit just brings that end faster.

Sure it's a great idea to tune the time limit based on what feels right, as long as it's not long enough for people to just "sit there and waste time" I'm fine with it. But when it's long enough that it's getting to that point, people start getting bored and leave. I have a hard time imagining what you actually do during those 12 minutes.

Anyway, just so you don't get my point wrong, I'd rather have DTAS with just about any time limit over TDM, regardless of what kind of players are on the server.
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Midwinter



Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Posts: 20
Location: Valencia, Spain

PostPosted: 2009-05-24 10:46:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have a hard time imagining what you actually do during those 12 minutes.


Well, I just observed my teammates. If they know what they are doing, that can be as entertaining as playing (yes , I know, i am weird Razz)

For me, the real problem with TDM behavior in DTAS are the maps. With most maps it's too easy to infer where the enemy is going to come from, because usually there are too few ways to the flag location. If maps were bigger, it would let the attackers to choose among more options for approaching the objective and would force the defenders to stay closer to the flag so the risk of a defeat by capture would be lower.

A good example of a good DTAS map is (IMO) Extreme Prejudice. Although it is basically a circular road and it was designed as a TDM map, it is big enough to leave attackers some time to organize, so the menace of TDM defenders is lower (of course, random spawns can negate this effect sometimes). Another good thing of EP is that you can have some degree of freedom when selecting your route. Sure, at the start you can only go to the right or to the left, but even then you can take more risks and go by the middle of the road or go safer and walk by the sides, with plenty of cover. Some of the best DTAS matches i have ever played were in this map. Of course, some more routes to go around would make that map even better (maybe EP2? Cool )
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galzohar



Joined: 10 May 2009
Posts: 13

PostPosted: 2009-05-24 14:06:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

Midwinter wrote:
Quote:
I have a hard time imagining what you actually do during those 12 minutes.


Well, I just observed my teammates. If they know what they are doing, that can be as entertaining as playing (yes , I know, i am weird Razz)

I was referring to what the living players do during those 12 minutes. Dead players obviously don't have many options.

Maps don't have to be as big as extreme prejudice (which definitely requires more than 3 mins, though I think 5 should be enough), but if they're small enough for the defenders to be able to actually attack the attackers right off the bat (for example: MWH, moving day massacre) then the flag adds very little gameplay. Even if the map doesn't have 20 approaches, as long as there's more than 1 approach and they can't tell WHEN you're coming, TDM style is not going to happen (or else the TDM style players are going to lose consistently). It's not just about map size, but also design - for example Norwich is big enough, yet you can shoot from just about anywhere to just about anywhere, which encourages both attackers and defenders to play TDM-style.

Bottom line is, if you want to reduce the effectiveness of TDM-style play, you need to encourage defenders to defend and attackers to attack. Both maps and time limits are critical to make this happen. Small/inappropriate maps make defenders attack. Long time limits and/or limited attack options (see: bridge crossing in america's army) make attackers not attack.
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zeep



Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 48

PostPosted: 2009-05-24 19:49:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

galzohar wrote:
..Long time limits and/or limited attack options (see: bridge crossing in america's army) make attackers not attack.

Nah, you're mistaken. Long time limits make attackers not attack? Then what are they doing? hahah.. In the xxx amount of DTAS matches i've played that ever happened. Wink

Look, i understand what you're saying. You want good DTAS. But yet you favor to constrict the freedom of tactics in this gametype with small time limits. A 5 min timelimit in Extreme Prejudice, thats forcing players to rush!

Don't think "how can i make TDM players play DTAS?", because througout the years they've never gotten the DTAS spirit period. It's somewhat the difference between "how many kills can i get?" and "how can we def/att succesfully".

It's like Mid says, maps certainly have a big influence on the game.

DTAS + randomteamspawn is a great gamemode and i hope to see it again in another realistic infantry game. ARMA2, GB etc.. Where maps are really big.
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2009-05-24 22:08:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't fix the game, fix the community.

Actually, please fix the game too.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-05-25 06:37:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psychomorph wrote:
Don't fix the game, fix the community.

And how would you do that? Brainwashing, detention camps, genocide, hostages? Or the UN way, by complaining endlessly how others do it wrong and putting emphasis on how this is unacceptable, then pass a resolution that states this in fancy wording, followed by a good dinner?

If there's one thing I learned in Inf, it is that playstyle can't be enforced, ever. People not pleased will either interfere or stop playing. You can put in whatever restrictions you want, it won't work. You can make up whatever fancy rules and guidelines you want, it won't work. The only thing that works is getting likeminded peolpe together and kicking anyones butt off the server who doesn't comply - or use a passworded server. It's not like Inf wouldn't have enough servers for two or three playstyle groups to have fun independently.

While I do enjoy DTAS when it eventually happens, my main gripes with it are not playstyle related, but mutator inherent. For one it is possible to cap when being above /below the flag, which makes defending a pain in the ass sometimes. The other point is random team spawn related, as the defenders have to get orientation and place the flag at a reasonably suitable location - which needs both experience with cap mechanism and the map; also that's the main reason I usually enter "mutate iamnotworthy" at the start of every game or when players leave, since I suck at placing flags.

While I do understand that defender attacking as a team is obviously BS, having one or two soldiers of a larger team doing harassment in front of the main defense lines is a viable tactic, since the attackers will be slowed down in their attack having to watch out for enemies before they reach the main defense line. After all the goal of the defenders is to keep their territory for a given time..

Also the dislike for 40mm is something that I can not really get from a realism perspective [from a personal perspective I fully understand this, since I hate getting blown up by 40mms as much as everyone else]. Bombarding an area to be attacked with indirect fire - and 40mms is as close as we get to indirect fire in Inf - is proper tactic. Actually the Soviet doctrine in WWII called for some insane ammount of artillery pieces per kilometer to be used for assaults. It's also pretty usual to take an area into fire where enemy is suspected - a tactic called recon by fire. Just think of it this way, if one of your teammates get's hit by fire from the general area of three building, would you go ahead or pound a few 40mms [and a few hundred 5.56/7.62] into each building, drop smoke and then go ahead?
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Carpetsmoker



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 380
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands

PostPosted: 2009-05-25 16:44:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And how would you do that? Brainwashing, detention camps, genocide, hostages?


I vote for all of the above.

As for the 40mm, there are two things to be said:
o Blind nading ... 'nuff said about that.
o Implemtation isn't really that realistic, it's way to easy to aim very fast, common tactic by ``them'' is to run around a corner, fire 40mm, back in to the corner ... Works 90% of the time, no way you can aim so well, it should take a few seconds...
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-05-25 17:10:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carpetsmoker wrote:
I vote for all of the above.

Reminds me of the South Park episode where they are forced to learn tolerance in a death camp Mr. Green

Carpetsmoker wrote:
As for the 40mm, there are two things to be said:
o Blind nading ... 'nuff said about that.
o Implemtation isn't really that realistic, it's way to easy to aim very fast, common tactic by ``them'' is to run around a corner, fire 40mm, back in to the corner ... Works 90% of the time, no way you can aim so well, it should take a few seconds...

Partly agreed on point 1. Blindnading as in spawning and shooting the suspected enemy spawn or at random locations is BS IMO. Shooting at suspected enemy positions (i.e. you've seen the enemy running into a building or around the corner but don't have a line of sight now) on the other hand would be a viable tactic - as I've seen remarks lately calling that blindnading.

Since I haven't fired a 40mm in my life I can't really say how long it would take, but leaning around a corner with weapon ready (i.e. aimed) and shooting at a location you've seen before shouldn't take a few seconds, since it's basically the same as fireing the rifle "normally" - running around a corner and hipping is another thing though.
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galzohar



Joined: 10 May 2009
Posts: 13

PostPosted: 2009-05-25 21:41:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

40mm doesn't really take any longer to aim than normal weapons (after all, it is an under-barrel launcher). As for the accuracy, though, that's more debatable. Random team spawns and big maps though already do plenty to make it hard to learn the exact offset you need (since a lot of m203 spamming shots require more accuracy than knowing if it's 50m or 100m, which you can't realistically tell unless you've specifically tried shooting from that very place to that same place beforehand). Also big enough maps make it so attackers/defenders can't really guess where the other team is, so blind nading is mostly a waste of ammunition. Play MWH, though, and you're guaranteed to get nade spamming.

Fight unrealistic behaviors with improved realism had always been my preferred approach. Similar can be said for playstyle - make teamplay effective and make TDM-style play lose, and you'll get more players that play as a team. Some will still play TDM-style, but they'll die quick (if they don't, maybe they ARE doing something right (or the game is doing something wrong)).

As for capturing from above etc, why not reduce the capture radius? It makes sense if the flag is simulating some kind of a realistic objective (destroy/disable/pickup/whatever). Just no 2-capper-required BS, as that makes attacking lose way too often, especially with reduced capture radius (it's difficult enough to protect 1 capper). Also didn't they fix it to require LOS to flag to cap at some point?
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-05-26 09:52:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

galzohar wrote:
As for capturing from above etc, why not reduce the capture radius? It makes sense if the flag is simulating some kind of a realistic objective (destroy/disable/pickup/whatever). Just no 2-capper-required BS, as that makes attacking lose way too often, especially with reduced capture radius (it's difficult enough to protect 1 capper). Also didn't they fix it to require LOS to flag to cap at some point?

The commonly used DTAS (1.60?) definetly hasn't got LOS capturing, since I took part in a few caps where a teammate and I were in range but definetly not in sight. One way would be to check not only the distance but also X/Y/Z components separately, this way you could have a general horizontal range you must be in plus a +/- 1 manheight vertical range in case the flag is slightly below/above. I'm not sure I like having to have LOS though.

The point about attackers losing too often, given the fact attacking a same-size force should actually be hard I don't have a problem with that - IIRC an assault force should be about 2-3 times the size of a defending force to even have a chance to succeed (I know that's a very rough generalization, since technology, training etc. play also important roles). In any case a 1 man cap in current DTAS would make it even harder for the defenders when having to defend in close areas, where attackers can slip in rather easily and cap alone. Reducing objevtive range wouldn't help here, since it forces the defenders to stay even closer to the flag, making the whole defending team susceptible to grenades. I think it might make sense to have two separate ranges, a larger one for defenders and a smaller one for attackers - this way defenders could make better use of terrain and the attackers are actually forced to not only slip in one ninja-guy and cap, but also reduce the ammount of defenders before. After all would you consider ground captured when the full enemy force is still in?
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galzohar



Joined: 10 May 2009
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PostPosted: 2009-05-26 11:30:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point for 1 capper with short range is that the defenders will only have to watch the flag and not the entire 15m around it. If they let someone sneak past them they *should* lose. Short cap range would make it so they can place the flag at a place where it can be watched from multiple directions (even in a closed area) so you don't get nade-spammed.

Settings should be made so you don't have to sit ON the flag to defend it, but also so that defense doesn't have a huge advantage.

Like you said, if defenders are dug-in, 3-1 is the general rule of thumb for equally trained/equipped forces. Of course enemies not being dug in makes it less of an issue, but still defenders do have an advantage if their exact positions are unknown and they can wait for the attackers to make the move and ambush them (in gamer language: camp). Since defenders already have an advantage, making is so they only have to kill N-1 players to win while attackers need to kill N players (assuming all defenders won't allow for a capture if they're still alive). It's hard enough to send 1 guy into possible enemy line of fire while others cover him - sending 2 is often not possible, especially in small matches where the entire team is only 3-5 players (which is what usually happens due to the size of the community). Defenders have enough advantage due to the sheer fact they are defending, you don't need to give them more advantage by gimping attackers cap ability.

Short cap range is also somewhat realistic if it simulates something like shutting off some system, setting up C4s to destroy something, or whatever else you can imagine as a mission objective that can't be completed by an air strike...
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: 2009-05-26 12:43:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

galzohar wrote:
The point for 1 capper with short range is that the defenders will only have to watch the flag and not the entire 15m around it. If they let someone sneak past them they *should* lose. Short cap range would make it so they can place the flag at a place where it can be watched from multiple directions (even in a closed area) so you don't get nade-spammed.

The problem here is, that on a map with random team spawn you'll often have a hard time finding a suitable location for the flag that provides a suffucient ammount of defensive positions around it that have both cover/concealment and a free line of sight to the flag.

galzohar wrote:
Short cap range is also somewhat realistic if it simulates something like shutting off some system, setting up C4s to destroy something, or whatever else you can imagine as a mission objective that can't be completed by an air strike...

Well, I've always thought of DTAS more of a advance/delay scenario, where one side has to take an area while the other side has to defend it for a given time, although without time for proper preparations - i.e. they're not dug in. So from my interpretation having one guy sneak past and capture doesn't make sense since the goal would be to capture the area - although it does make sense if you see capturing more as doing a certain objective.
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galzohar



Joined: 10 May 2009
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PostPosted: 2009-05-26 15:41:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you see "capturing" is taking control of an area, you get TDM (where the "area" is the entire map).

If bad flag placement is a problem, increase the time defenders have to pick the flag spot by a little. That combined with small capture radius will make sneaking around a non-factor, assuming defenders are actually trying to defend effectively rather than just hunt attackers TDM-style. That said, 2-cappers requirement encourages defense to play TDM-style, as attackers are less likely to win by capturing.
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