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Why i don't like to play coop much anymore
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zeep



Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 48

PostPosted: 2008-03-05 16:14:25    Post subject: Why i don't like to play coop much anymore Reply with quote

Nothing big really but when i was reading Stinky's reply on server rules and rules of engagement concerning the Na Pali inhibitants (that means shooting at them ruins the immersion factor), it became clear to me why i don't like playing coop anymore:

In small corridors people don't form a line, like you're taught in military training, they all rush forward to get kills first, crossing eachothers paths, crossing LOF's all over the place. I'm constantly forced to avoid shooting teammates instead of focussing on the enemy.

Walking / double tempo. Granted, no use walking for entire boring lenghts, that's map/location dependant, but it should be a communicated order. In a group; everybody runs, or everybody walks.
Maybe locations in orders to make it clear. e.g. "Double time to the doors, then hold.", stuff like that. Many times people are running left and right like they're giving away free hotdogs.

It's unrealistic. I want to advance, engage and retreat as a team.

Btw, i'm not saying i'll never play again, nor that everybody should do as i say. Just voicing my thoughts.
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Stinkmarder
[JgKdo]


Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Germany

PostPosted: 2008-03-05 18:37:16    Post subject: Amen. Reply with quote

1.) You are right.
2.) You play with the wrong people.
3.) Tonight on Coop2?

---
Funny thing is, when there is really a need to move fast in certain situations - like when you are fighting in a very narrow hallway without any cover - it's those people who usually run around like mad who will instead of moving away from the choke point (and allow others to open fire as well) stand still and block the whole team (with fatal consequences).
I remember more than one situation where I - seeing this complete lack of any tactical awareness - was wondering whether I am playing with bots or humans.

IMO there are three kinds of INF Coop players:
a) those who play it like Monster Hunt, giving a shit about tactics and teamwork
b) those who play it in a realistic manner for the immersion factor
c) and those who mostly play like a) but can adapt to b)

You probably can't turn around a), but if there a no more b) (like you) we will lose c). So please play more often. I'll try to, too.

The strong side of INF Coop is that it can be played with only a few players, or even alone -- IMHO the 'Vote kick' option should be used more often for misbehaving players...
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Carpetsmoker



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 381
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands

PostPosted: 2008-03-05 19:52:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
IMHO the 'Vote kick' option should be used more often for misbehaving players...


Well, when is someone "misbehaving"?
I sometimes get seriously agitated by the "teamwork" (or rather the lack thereof) of certain players, but I also don't want to force my particular view of how infiltration "should" be played upon other people by complaining and/or vote-kicking ... So maybe some sort of compromise where both "sides" win is in order, something like:

Have certain days of the week where stricter rules are applied.
Or
Two servers, one without any rules (More or less like now), and the other with stricter rules ...
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Biene_Maja



Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 79
Location: Paderborn, Germany

PostPosted: 2008-03-05 20:28:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me is InfCoop funny when I can play with some people and talk to them in Teamspeak. I know it's a problem for people which are not there because they couldn't hear our "teamplay".
But I would talk in english if there were english speaking persons in TS or I ask EGM to translate Embarassed
I think I'm not an easy person to play with but I have critical faculties. Just try it Shocked Wink
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-03-06 07:28:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess I'd think I'm a clear D-Type; I adapt to whichever playstyle is dominant on the server - with a slight dependecy on my personal mood; there are some days when a fireing an entire AKM drum at a single enemy just needs to be done - and there are days where I feel the urge to move (alone) on the server using a FAL on semi and a Uzi for CQB while cautiously advancing.

While I generally agree with zeep concerning the unrealistic gameplay, I might want to add, that not everyone playing Coop actually enjoyed a military training - I know I didn't. And I also think it's a tad too much to expect that a semi-random choice of players acts as a team with strict roles just as they enter the server - even if most Coop players "know" each other due to the rather small ammount of regular players.
To work tactically together as a team - especially when half of the team didn't serve in the military and has limited, if any, knowledge of tactics - you'll need at least a bit of training together and preferably a TeamSpeak connection for everyone; also a sort of "chain-of-command" might be useful to make sure everyone knows what to do and when - at least until the team starts acting as such.

What might be done to improve tactical teamplay is to form a group of "tactical players", who play at certain (preferably fixed) times in a realistic manner. Players prefering the other playstyle are free to use the other Coop server - after all there are two of them Wink.
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*Firebird*



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 245
Location: North-West-Germany

PostPosted: 2008-03-06 13:00:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people really donīt care about others on Coop, but thats a rare exception. I think there are just different ways of Teamplay on Coop. First is what you will notice, when you join TeamSpeak: People play together, help each other and so on, but not with a strong tactically coordination in movements. Thats why for those who donīt listen to TS it may seems like there is none (Teamplay).The second is, what most of you mean when talking about Teamplay. The tactically advance, engage and retreat, what includes slower movement, more coordinated coverfire, etc.

I like both. First because there is lot of fun in TS, and second because of the close interconnection to teammates and free Lof (Line of fire). But I see that there is a problem to combine them. It starts with the fact, that if you are talking in Teamspeak, you naturally donīt read Teamsay that intensely as you do without TS, even if you try to do.That may cause a communication problem between TeamSpeakers and NoneTeamSpeakers, too.
Besides its not easy to behave like it is necessary for being a good teammate in the second way of Teamplay. For myself I still need umpteen instructions to learn that. And often monsters are just faster. Wink So, teach me if you can! Mr. Green

To avoid frustration it might be really a solution to do one kind of teamplay on one server and the other on the other one, much better than to choose different days of the week for it, because different times in my opinion just causes confusion. But arenīt there different maps on the different servers? Thats would be a pitty than.
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All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure. Mark Twain (1835-1910)

Our team is well balanced. - We have problems everywhere. Tommy Prothro (since 1941)
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 392
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2008-03-07 01:08:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was allready leaving Infiltration and I almost left even co-op several times, but came always back. Usually I need a little break to get back into co-op.

My only way to play it is the realistic-tactical way, no exceptions. If this would not happen in co-op anymore, I wouldn't play.
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Funkster



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 15

PostPosted: 2008-03-07 21:01:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

You team up with the wrong people =)
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 392
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2008-03-10 14:36:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played with Ente yesterday. It was a very short game (about 30 minutes), very simple, but really really awesome. These are exactly the moments where I really understand why I like Inf-co-op so much.

Reason why it was fun was not just because we played as a team, but because of the whole playing style:
- doing what the other says (and the other never tells nonsense)
- never reloading together (not if situation is not clear, or there is no other way)
- using a simple but effective formation where you either support the teammember (he leans and you have your muzzle pointed the same direction for the case something jumps out) or cover the perimeter that is out of his reach.
- move together, hold together.
- etc.


That is the only way for me to get the maximum fun out of co-op, everything below is not worth it honestly and I had (to) many Inf-co-op games where I just quit because it sucked, but I am still coming back, exactly because of the players like Ente (and others of the same kind).


Carpetsmoker suggested to have two servers. I like the idea, but it can get problematic.
First; mostly you have the "easy players" playing.
Second; if the "easy players" and the "tac-players" are playing at the same time you mostly want to fill a server instead to split the community, though I think the "easy players" will never go down, the "tac-players" actually have to fight for the right to have their game going.


I don't know how to make it so that "tac-games" are more organized instead of to hop in and to hope to have a good game. It happened to me where I was in the mood for a real good tac-game, but it didn't work, and sometimes you hop in and have an awesome game (like me and Ente yesterday).

There is no way to really control it (except our Admin).


Maybe I make a "Rules & Guidelines" thread to support a more realistic playing style.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-03-10 17:25:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psychomorph wrote:
Carpetsmoker suggested to have two servers. I like the idea, but it can get problematic.
First; mostly you have the "easy players" playing.
Second; if the "easy players" and the "tac-players" are playing at the same time you mostly want to fill a server instead to split the community, though I think the "easy players" will never go down, the "tac-players" actually have to fight for the right to have their game going.


Well, actually we already have two servers; wouldn't it be comparingly easy for "exclusively" tac-gamers to join a running session, containing several easy-gamers and tac-gamers mixed, ask if anyone wants to play tac-exclusively and if receiving positive response take the other server? Yes, this will reduce population of one server, but COOP can be already fun in small numbers, and I'd rather have four people on one server playing the way they like and four on the second playing their way - especially if exlusively tac-gamers wouldn't even play on a "mostly" easy populated server. In addition if several tac-gamers already populate a server, they can politely ask joining easy-gamers to take the other server or play tac-style - or be kicked. If COOP players actually are as mature as I perceived them to be until now, I suppose such a sollution should be more than possible.

Quote:
I don't know how to make it so that "tac-games" are more organized instead of to hop in and to hope to have a good game. It happened to me where I was in the mood for a real good tac-game, but it didn't work, and sometimes you hop in and have an awesome game (like me and Ente yesterday).

There is no real way to do this other than have a thread in this forum and agreeing on a date&time, though this will only provide you with the necessary players, not necessarily with a good game. My best Inf session was a DTAS 3vs3 with Undead_Lord and another (I forgot his name Sad) on my team and until then I always wondered what all the DTAS-fuzz I read was all about - then I knew. We did adanced slowly and tactically and even though the round took long (not a bad thing IMO) it was sheer excitement.

Quote:
Maybe I make a "Rules & Guidelines" thread to support a more realistic playing style.


Scratch the "maybe" part Mr. Green I'm sure others like me, who did not have tactical training, might have an easier time not "pissing off" tac-exclusivelies.
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zeep



Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 48

PostPosted: 2008-03-10 18:44:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes don't remind me of the good DTAS matches i had in the past. Many pre-2.9. But in 2.9 there have been many good DTAS nights too.

The only determining factor is really adult, tac players.

Sure, everybody goofs around sometime, kids just do it more often. Nothing is more demotivating than to make a sneaky approach to the enemy zone, taking your time, carefully communicating contacts and strategy in your team.... And then one of the defenders comes running by spamming 40mm and rounds everywhere and he feels great about himself eleminating half the attackers.

Now while his gameplay is completely legit, it misses the point of the game. It's the courtmanship that they lack. The enjoyment of the battle loses to their ego's that must score kills.

I say YES to a tac (passworded) coop server. Only tac. Don't want to play tac? Run and gun your way to server B.

Don't take this all personal guys, i'm just venting and saying stuff that's been bugging me long even before coop. But i guess most of you understand where i'm coming from.
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 392
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2008-03-10 21:31:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

zeep wrote:
I say YES to a tac (passworded) coop server.

This is actually something we talked about with Stinkmarder some time ago.
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*Firebird*



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 245
Location: North-West-Germany

PostPosted: 2008-03-11 02:50:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

zeep wrote:
I say YES to a tac (passworded) coop server.

I donīt know if a passworded server is the right solution. Just some questions to think about:
- How you want to decide, who gets the password? Do you wanna make a tac-test with people like a driverīs license?
- What about new players? How should they know that there is a tac-server if they canīt join it to acquaint the gamestyle?
- How can anybody learn to play tac, if it is necessary to be already good at tac to get the password and there is nobody who could teach, because all tac players are on passworded server?


Snakeye wrote:
Psychomorph wrote:

Maybe I make a "Rules & Guidelines" thread to support a more realistic playing style.

Scratch the "maybe" part Mr. Green I'm sure others like me, who did not have tactical training, might have an easier time not "pissing off" tac-exclusivelies.

Some true words, Snakeye! Please do that, Psy! Very Happy
_________________

All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure. Mark Twain (1835-1910)

Our team is well balanced. - We have problems everywhere. Tommy Prothro (since 1941)
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Carpetsmoker



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 381
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands

PostPosted: 2008-03-11 04:20:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
- How can anybody learn to play tac, if it is necessary to be already good at tac to get the password and there is nobody who could teach, because all tac players are on passworded server?


Let me put it this way:
*THE* most basic rule of teamplay is to stick together, this is so obvious and simple that even a horses and wilderbeasts figured this one out.
I so often see players just running off in seemingly random directions looking for something to KILL KILL KILL ... This has nothing to with "learning tac" and everything about not caring about it.
Then there are other people who may not be the best tacplayers, but who care and try and learn, which is ofcourse completely different from someone who doesn't ...

I'm not sure about the password, but I would be in favor of two servers.
I think all coop players have Unreal, so the two maplists could just be joined ...
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-03-11 08:15:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

zeep wrote:
I say YES to a tac (passworded) coop server.

While I personally would think this is not necessary, since I assume even "easy" COOP players would respect a tac server, it might be an option if they don't. Generally I suppose it might be better no start non-passworded in order to allow all players to take a quick look if tactical playing suits them. In order to enforce tactical play you might want to have some hardcore-tacs having admin rights to kick players who obviously don't want to play tactically and refuse to take another server.
Also a passworded server has the problem, that you have to chose who gets the password. If you are too restrictive the server will be empty mostly, if you're too generous you'll have to change password all the time to keep unpleasant company out. And how would you chose who's allowed to play on the tac server? Based on regular COOP? If you'd see me on a COOP server on one of my worse days you might end up thinking I'm a sociopathic, ammo-wasting, Nali-killing mass-murderer, who in no way could play in a team; but then I really enjoy playing tactically - though I also enjoy rambo-style from time to time..

Carpetsmoker wrote:
*THE* most basic rule of teamplay is to stick together, this is so obvious and simple that even a horses and wilderbeasts figured this one out.

Well, THIS one actually might be obvious, but others might be not. It took me some time to not waste ammo on an enemy when two other teammates let loose, so not all three of us end up having to reload when more enemies show up - and I think there might be quite a few things I still do wrong, so writing them up in a thread can't really hurt; after all it should reduce the time necessary for a "light tac" player to change into a "full tac" player.
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