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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-04-28 13:56:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy_Karnickel wrote:
Ok, I like the M60 but never the less there are some points:

- U don't use a MG like a riffle - it's not build for aming or single fire. Its to cover! So the hit rate is much lower than the hit rate of a rifle. This means, u can't compare the needed amo for a MG with the amo for a riffle.

- M60 bulk 30. Bulk limit for full stam. 47 (48?) (and as allready discussed - in the current maps we need full stam. Wink ). With 4 bulk per box u can carry 5 boxes (500 rounds) and 2 frags. No backup weapon or other stuff... This makes the M60 very unattractive - but I thought a good squad need a MG?!!

- Even with the old bulk system just few people use MGs (there are obviously drawbacks in compare to rifles) - so we've more "rambos" with rifle! Wink

I think a bulk of 2 would be ok... Otherwise we won't have MGs soon!


Well, two options:
a.) Use the Minimi, as it carries twice the ammo per box and the M60 is not twice as lethal
b.) Ask kindly ( Mr. Green ) and I'll make myself a M60 support loadout, i.e. SIG551 or M4 with 10 mags, M9 with 3 and 5 M60 ammo boxes, so you wont run out when we share server time.

PS: I'm well aware of this:
Snakeye wrote:
..Right now there'd be no way in hell I'd carry a MG ammo box in any loadout at the cost of five precious 30rd mags..

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Crazy_Karnickel



Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 50
Location: Germany

PostPosted: 2008-04-29 10:38:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snakeye wrote:

Ask kindly ( Mr. Green ) and I'll make myself a M60 support loadout, i.e. SIG551 or M4 with 10 mags, M9 with 3 and 5 M60 ammo boxes, so you wont run out when we share server time.


Thanks MK - this would be pretty nice. In the moment (1 bulk per box) it isn't necessary. Yesterday I carried 8 boxes and need 5 maximum - but we've been a huge squad. So, with a bulk of 2 per box it would be also ok...

At this point I would also like to thank all teammates of the session yesterday evening - very good teamplay and lot of fun!!! Thanks to Firebird, Biene, Snake, Ente, Chuckus, Explod! (hopefully I forgot no one)

Furthermore - I think all this mates agree when I affirm that without the MGs the session yesterday would have been much harder Wink
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Chuckus



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 36

PostPosted: 2008-04-29 17:04:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You're kidding, right? You mean it's OK to carry an M60 (=30 bulk, or a SIG551 with 15! mags) AND 20 boxes of ammo for it? 20 boxes of M60 rounds equals 2000(!) rounds of ammo - the BULLET weight alone (not counting the powder, casing, links and box) would be 19kg - that's an MP5 (~2.5kg) and about 50(!!!) mags for it, assuming 330g per MP5 mag. Assuming a cyclic rate of fire of 550rpm (that's about correct for the M60) you would be shooting all that ammo for ~218s on full auto (well, most probably the barrel would melt before youre finish..). And that's supposed to "reduce ramboing"?

Now please I can see what those modified bulk is supposed to to, but when people can carry around 2000rds of 7.62 ammo then I'd really need a better explanation why I can't carry around a MP5 with 15mags as secondary when I'm alone on the server - or I simply switch to MG, since I used "only" 10 boxes of ammo for my current MG loadouts - and I'm terribly paranoid about running out of ammo.


ok. I guess I didn't test the limit of the MG loadout lol. My loadout has 5 ammo cans and like 5 pistol ammo. Anything more and I get a stamina hit. The more you know Razz
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*Firebird*



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 245
Location: North-West-Germany

PostPosted: 2008-05-03 20:42:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy_Karnickel wrote:

At this point I would also like to thank all teammates of the session yesterday evening - very good teamplay and lot of fun!!! Thanks to Firebird, Biene, Snake, Ente, Chuckus, Explod! (hopefully I forgot no one)
Furthermore - I think all this mates agree when I affirm that without the MGs the session yesterday would have been much harder Wink


Yes I agree. The MGs did a great job that time. But please no Thx to me, I was horrible on the date of this session and I know that very well. Wink At least I just tried not to disturb your brilliant Teamplay and it was very instructive to listen to Entes orders in TS. You all act as one well organized squad as a matter of course. If I'm honest your strenght of discipline surprised me a little, but it was nice to watch you and I'm looking forward for some more real good games like that one was.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-05-04 17:28:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuckus wrote:
ok. I guess I didn't test the limit of the MG loadout lol. My loadout has 5 ammo cans and like 5 pistol ammo. Anything more and I get a stamina hit. The more you know Razz


Well, considering the funky little PDF I once got linked to on BuF (the thread was sadly lost in the third big crash) a M240B machine gunner carries only 300rds of 7.62x51 - and a M9 with 3mags. The remaining ammo for the MG is carried by the assistant machine gunner (400rds in addition to his M4 with 7 mags) and the MG ammunition bearer (300rds in addition to his M4 with 7 mags) - note that this is the load carried on weapon, "fighting load carrier" (guess some modern expression for the LBE) and the assault rucksack. The M249 is not per se considered a MG but a Squad Automaic Weapon and therefore is operated by a single person who carries 800rds of ammo for it.

The PDF seems to be (I'm usually a bit sceptic about anything that can be found on the internet - even if I got linked to it by a Inf board member) the result of a study of combat loads used in Afghanistan by US troops, with mission durations of 48 to 72 hours. This does not dicrectly translate to Inf COOP IMO, since US troops in Afghanistan usually travel in larger groups than found in Inf COOP - so I'd rather put Inf COOP in the special operations area - assuming you find a SpecOps force of 6 to 12 people stupid enough to enter an area of ~50 to 100+ suspected enemies (not to mention physically superior) with the actual goal to engage and destroy them without ANY support (no Air, Artillery, Naval Guns or reinforcements). So I'd assume Inf COOP troopers would take a tad more ammo than usual.

Nevertheless my opinion remains, that if MGs are allowed to carry ammo in the weight range of a SMG with 20 mags, then disallowing a rifleman a backup SMG with said number of mags or less doesn't make any logical sense - on the contrary it would only encourage people to use MGs - especially when alone - instead of more practical and fun loadouts. I used to play MG only when I was alone in the beginning; then I gradually switched to drums and then to 30rd mags and a backup weapons (Benelli or a SMG as I think I pointed out more than once). Such a loadout provided me with more versatility and fun when alone (and to a certain extend also when in a team) since it vastly improved my survivability - and it made certain weapons actually feasible; a FAL alone is a very limited weapon, espacially when there are CQB parts in the map. Combined with a Uzi you get both the punch and long range efficiency of the FAL and a good CQB weapon, although with a tad less punch.

Now I don't expect the bulk system to be restored to it's old state (though I suspect a few people might be happier about it) but IF the point of the new bulk is to make loadouts more life-like, then keeping MG and Drums at the same value as 30rd mags - or even only slightly above - doesn't make sense. IMO drums should be at 3 bulk and MG boxes at 4 bulk. Drums at 3 since they provide you with more ammo until you reload, which justifies giving 75rds of ammo the same bulk as 90rds in 3 30rd mags. MGs at 4 bulk because 5 would actually further decrease the likelyhood of teammates carrying MG ammo when they aren't MGs. This way if noone carried backup MG ammo the machine gunner could dump the M9 with 3 mags for two more ammo boxes - and riflemen might be persuaded to carry a ammo box or two if MGs are present on the server.
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"This is a quasi-pleasant day. Almost not bad. Almost not bad at all..." Jon, 04.03.2009
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-05-07 05:54:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the "double post" - but I wanted to ask what happened to the idea of increasing bulk of drums&boxes? Did Stm just not have the time yet or was it dropped? I'm just asking because Stm mentioned he would change it "tomorrow" on April 27 - and my experimental "Rambo" loadout (i.e. M60+18Ammo Boxes) still worked yesterday without stamina penalty - I recommend not to aim while using it Mr. Green

PS: For those who worry: I changed loadouts at the next respawn (M14DMR, no scope, 360rds of good old 7.62 - yeah, still much weight, I know) and went back to the habit of aiming..
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"This is a quasi-pleasant day. Almost not bad. Almost not bad at all..." Jon, 04.03.2009
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Stinkmarder
[JgKdo]


Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Germany

PostPosted: 2008-05-07 19:47:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just very busy with real life at the moment and couldn't decide on the exact values for these drums and cans...
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-05-08 05:43:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stinkmarder wrote:
I'm just very busy with real life at the moment..


I thought something like that, hope my post didn't seem "pushy" since it wasn't intended to - just wanted to know if it's still planned.

Stinkmarder wrote:
..and couldn't decide on the exact values for these drums and cans...


Well, I think Carpet, Crazy and I all made suggestions which could be used - or we could initiate a poll for a more democratic result, if you do trust the ignorant masses floating around these forums enough to make such a decision, that is Mr. Green.
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"This is a quasi-pleasant day. Almost not bad. Almost not bad at all..." Jon, 04.03.2009
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Kueltag



Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Budapest, Hungary

PostPosted: 2008-07-17 21:05:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everybody

Well, it was not easy to register here, thanks Snakeye. Damn malware!

Erm... A question and a request.

The question: what's the full name (I mean classname.itemname) of the level 3A armor vest? I couldn't find it anywhere even with the editactor commands, and I would like to modify its bulk.

The request: could you please Stinkmarder increase the maximum number of rows? Any increment would be nice, optimally to a total of 80 rows. I read that you have plenty of things to do in RL, it's not urgent of course.

Thanks
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Carpetsmoker



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 381
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands

PostPosted: 2008-07-17 21:35:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
what's the full name (I mean classname.itemname) of the level 3A armor vest?


INF_Equip.INFe_ArmorVestL3a.uc

Quote:
The request: could you please Stinkmarder increase the maximum number of rows? Any increment would be nice, optimally to a total of 80 rows. I read that you have plenty of things to do in RL, it's not urgent of course.


Number of rows ...?
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Kueltag



Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Budapest, Hungary

PostPosted: 2008-07-17 22:50:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

1st: thanks.

2nd: Sorry, I'm a bit tired. Smile Number of items the bulk of which can be modified which is now 32. I called them rows because of the ClassBulk[nr.] rows in Infiltartion.ini.
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Carpetsmoker



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 381
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands

PostPosted: 2008-07-17 22:54:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

You would need to edit the script, increase the size of the Array and recompile the package ... It's trivial.
Byt why do you want more? 32 should be enough ...
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Kueltag



Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Budapest, Hungary

PostPosted: 2008-07-17 23:55:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, it's not my work. I did some stuff before for other programs (NFS), so I respect others' work enough not to "hack" them. On the other hand, I never used UnrealEd.

My reason for the request is that I would change things another way as you do here. I don't play online, so my preferences are different. I spent a day finding out and putting in an Excel chart what the actual weight is for each of the weapons, their attachments and their ammo. So now I have a clear picture what did Sentry Studios / others modify with their bulk value, to make ppl use them more/less. ACOGs, 40 mm grenades, Claymores are unreasonably bulky (for my offline play), while the MAG-7, the FAMAS, the MP5K are unreasonably unbulky, to mention a few. So for example when I wanted the lower the bulk of the reflex sight for the HK416 from 4 to 1, I had to use up 4 rows for the 4 combinations. Now imagine that with the scopes of the M16A4, the M4A1 and the RO979. So my request still lives, especially if it's -as you said- not that hard.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-07-18 05:24:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kueltag wrote:
First, it's not my work. I did some stuff before for other programs (NFS), so I respect others' work enough not to "hack" them. On the other hand, I never used UnrealEd.

Actually modifying mutators for personal use isn't something considered hacking - and doesn't show disrespect for other peoples work. Basically I see anything done for UT as being under some kind of implicit GPL since you are able to extract (among other things) the code with UnrealEd - I'd still ask peoples permissions for releasing something publicly though.

Kueltag wrote:
I don't play online, so my preferences are different. I spent a day finding out and putting in an Excel chart what the actual weight is for each of the weapons, their attachments and their ammo.

Bulk wasn't meant to represent weight alone - it's a strange combination of weight, size and a subjective balancing factor - thus you may consider the FAMAS underbulked if you only judge it's weight, but add in the more compact size due to bullpup design and it makes more sense again.

As for nades, 40mm and claymores these were overbulked for balancing reasons - and in my personal opinion are even overbulked at 1 bulk since a "standard" US Army grenadier carries about 24 of them [40mms], in addition to his other stuff - alas half bulks are not possible Smile. Then again having people carry 24 40mm nades for a small 4vs4 TDM will result in a nade spamming festival, since IRL the grenadier has to last about 48-72 hours with his load, while the average Inf player lifetime is somewhat below this.

In any case if you're offline only, why not use microbulk and just make the loadout you like - or if you like to be slowed down, why not change just the most important bulk "errors" so that the loadout you make has the desired bulk?

BTW: would you mind uploading that XLS you mentioned?
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"This is a quasi-pleasant day. Almost not bad. Almost not bad at all..." Jon, 04.03.2009
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Kueltag



Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Budapest, Hungary

PostPosted: 2008-07-18 10:16:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, it's not hacking, but still I don't know a thing about modifying these things, and I guess asking someone with experience is more simple than asking how could I do this. That would require a whole thread.

I will upload that chart later, I will have to cut it out then, as it is in a really big (17 MB) file, where I keep everything I did to Inf info. Laughing

I agree what you said about bulk values, I wrote about the same thoughts in my previous post. As for the FAMAS and its bulk: I think (and I read in old threads elsewhere) that bulk starts from the weight (1 bulk unit for 1/5th kg, my spreadsheet confirmed this), and than there is the "encouraging / discouraging" modification to the value. Solely based on its weight the FAMAS should be 18, so 14... that would mean that the FAMAS is a terribly bad weapon relative to its weight, so you have to strongly encourage people to still use it, which is not required, especially with IWE.

Anyway, we could discuss each weapons bulk here, which I'm not against. Wink But first, I'll post that chart.

As for MicroBulk: I use that against monsters and zombies, but I prefer to use the bulk system against bots, I think its valuable. Just to clarify: I don't use CustomBulk to lower the bulk of stuff. I even made certain things heavier, like I said before.
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