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Kueltag



Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Budapest, Hungary

PostPosted: 2008-07-20 17:54:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snakeye wrote:
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. I actually don't even want to know how large a 20kg ballon is, but if you carry one (no matter if in your hands or on your back) I'd like to see you running and moving as if you'd be carrying a 20kg lead piece. Try it once and tell me the results Mr. Green


Agreed. Added to my to-do list. Laughing
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spm1138



Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 49

PostPosted: 2008-07-20 22:37:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
[Master]Punisher


When I need a new nick I'll know what to take..


I quite like Punisher comics Embarassed

The "MAX" series were pretty good.
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2008-10-01 14:25:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a way how the bulk can be somehow adjusted further to allow carrying a secondary weapon and few more magazines, somehow?
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-10-01 15:50:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psychomorph wrote:
Is there a way how the bulk can be somehow adjusted further to allow carrying a secondary weapon and few more magazines, somehow?


Shocked Shocked Shocked

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you on the bulk-limit side of the discussion we had a few months ago? And wasn't there "general" consent the only secondary weapon that should be carryable is a pistol? What other secondary weapons do you wan't to drag along? Or did my heavy drinking* finally catch up and I'm having forum-related delirium hallucinations?

* Firebird disregard that comment Wink
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Carpetsmoker



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 380
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands

PostPosted: 2008-10-01 17:48:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, yes and no, I think the bulk limit is better because it prevents (some people) using 1000 rounds/minute.
It was a major annoyance, almost always when some ``realistic tac people'' were playing some not-so-realistic-and-tac-person (or people) joined and more or less ruined or game[1] ...

But it's far from perfect and realistic.
For that the old limit was better, some people didn't push the limit to the max and could use realistic loadouts that aren't possible anymore.

Psy made a long post about it with pictures at the BUF before it got deleted by the crash.

1: Just to explain/avoid any misunderstandings:
I do not want to tell anyone how they ``should'' play inf, play it the way you want to and have fun, but I do have a problem if my fun is (frequently) being ruined by it, especially when it's not needed (There are two servers, and we were here first).
It's like smoking, if you want to smoke, fine by me, but please don't blow the smoke in my face.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-10-01 18:19:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see. But to be honest I didn't see the problem back then (with two server and the ability to kick people) and I definetly don't see it now with four servers being around (XploD being without bulk limit and more frequented by low-tacs it seems). And to be honest the only part I consider unrealistic on COOP1&2 is the ammount of 40mm grenades one can carry. The rest seems fine to me - I mean you don't run around with 2 ARs in a real military service. My loadouts in my COOPr list (r being for restriced bulk Wink) all have 15 to 18 mags for the main (usually AR sometimes SMG) and three for the backup (M9). Works like a charm when in groups of 4+ and good enough when alone (which shouldn't be possible anyway IIRC) - also I have a few loadouts with 10 mags +1 or 2 ammo cans for MGs when having some in my squad - not that they were ever needed until now.

Just out of pure curiosity: what loadout you'd like isn't possible/feasible due to the bulk limit?
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
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Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2008-10-01 21:04:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carpetsmoker explained it basically.

It is absurd to carry 5 primaries and dozent of ammo, but it is also absurd to pick up a tinny MP5 and get a bulk increase like you packed 20kg in your backpack.

Clearly, you should not carry lots of ammo for both and it will be naturally decided which is your primary and which is your secondary; having a shotgun with enough ammo and a scoped rifle with only few mags automatically makes the shotgun beeing your primary combat weapon while the rifle is just for marksman purposes, having a rifle with enough mags and a shotgun with few rounds clearly makes the rifle beeing your primary and the shotgun a backup weapon.
Also if you do not want a secondary, just pack few more mags, for example for one of your team mates (a MG can), you will simply have more options, we actually did this with Stinkmarder before the adjusted bulk mutator, carrying few mags for the mate and it actually came to use (with our zero death gameplay philosophy... ahh the good times).

The argument that soldiers usually have one weapon is valid, but "realism" is not only what is, but also what can be. Skaarj may appear totally fiction, but if you think about fighting bigger and stronger enemies than it becomes less fiction (I even dare to see INF coop as a simulation of a possibility), combat adapts to the circumstances, not without reason hunters in the last century brought elephant rifles to hunt elephants, because elephants are different to lions or humans, as are Skaarj and Brutes to humans. Long speech short meaning; a soldiers adapts to the circumstances, the INF coop situation gives full automatic and a secondary weapon a meaning which might not apply when fighting other humans.
Also, israeli snipers always carry an M4 (earlier it was even an M16) with their M24 sniper rifle. Both light weight weapons so it makes sense.

As for what I'd like to use; my current combat shotgun loadout could have a short SMG with few mags as backup (pistol is emergency, not backup), I don't care if I would carry it in the backpack (since there would be enough room for it, because I have only a clay and few nades plus the primary ammo), but I at least could.
Also a marksman loadout, as the israeli snipers would be very efficient in co-op, have a shotgun for close and M16acog for the long ranges, you just have to sort the ammo right.

Also, for me it is not that much about having lots of weapons to switch between quickly, but about flexible "Einsetzbarkeit". As a shotgunner you are less of use when you reach an open area, you can change loadout for the map, but I prefer to keep my loadout because it is not "realistic" to magically exchange your weapons (unless I really want to use a new loadout at all). Also I always draw pistol when primary dry, unless I have enough time to select a secondary, both dictated by realism aswell.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-10-02 06:18:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand what you and Carpet mean and want and it's basically what I wanted back when bulk changed, though due to other reasons - I often [have to] play alone for some time until people join [or don't and I get tired] and having a secondary is more or less imperative to survive in this case.

I mildly disagree on the ammo point though. I've read quite a few book in Vietnam recently and there are more than just single cases of experienced trooper of both standard infantry and SOF/LRRP who took 1000rds of ammo for their M16s - in one case such a person even carried a shotgun with ~100rds and a .357 revolver in addition. Having two weapons with 20 mags each - depending on caliber and mag size of course - is possible. As is to carry around more than a single digit ammount of 40mm grenades. I'm not implying that such a loadout should be free of movement restriction, but it shouldn't make you slower than a rheumatic tortoise.

Just out of curiosity: why is using a pistol when dry more realistic than using a SMG that's about as easy to reach? If you were dropped on a planet inhabited by Skaarj and took along a primary and a secondary wouldn't you place the secondary (assuming it's small enough) easy to reach? I know there are examples (sniper rifle, shotgun) that have to be carried in a way that usually doesn't allow fast access, but with a MP5k or Mini Uzi it should be possible. And if a Skaarj comes running my way I'd rather be able to put 32rds at 1100rpm his way than 15rds at ~180rpm.

As for the shotgun: don't use one (personaly opinion fed by the fact I dislike this type of weapon and it's overglorification by hollywood). Shotguns in real life are carried because they are versatile tools that can fire a wide arrange of ammunition - including door breaching, less-lethal etc. Since none of this is in Inf the shotgun becomes a weapon that allows you to drop less enemies with one mag than a AR does plus needs a lot longer to reload with the added feature to be useless at any range beyond point blank. If I'd be dropped on a planet full of Skaarj a shotgun is the last primary I'd drag along - which is why I only have it as secondary in some loadouts and even then don't use it a lot.
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
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Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2008-10-02 12:59:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snakeye wrote:
Having two weapons with 20 mags each - depending on caliber and mag size of course - is possible.

Didn't mean to say anything different. Right now in co-op my shotgun loadout has relatively lots of rounds (little less made me getting dry more often), but that comes at cost of having only 60% of stamina, I deal with it, but yes, I'm really slow right now. With enhanced bulk you could have like 20 mags for both, that defenitely would affect your stamina just like it does now for me with the shotgun loadout, but you have to sort it to either have lots of rounds or beeing faster on your feet.
My point is, that right now you are way to limitted.

Snakeye wrote:
Just out of curiosity: why is using a pistol when dry more realistic than using a SMG that's about as easy to reach?

Of course if you have a PDW style SMG, than you can go for it. It is possible to take an MP5K instead of a pistol as last ressort, I prefer the pistol in co-op though because it weights less, gets aimed instantly (main point) and has a flashlight (if I use a loadout without it's useful) and I think it reloads faster. I can say the M9/Mk23 saved my virtual life more than dozent of times, hence I stick to it.

Another prob with some of INF's SMG's, aside the fact they are hipped on selection, is that you have the stock extending animation to go through. A pistol is brought to aim instantly.

Snakeye wrote:
As for the shotgun: don't use one (personaly opinion fed by the fact I dislike this type of weapon and it's overglorification by hollywood). Shotguns in real life are carried because they are versatile tools that can fire a wide arrange of ammunition - including door breaching, less-lethal etc.

You name breaching shotguns, but there are also combat shotguns, which the M1S90 is. Combat shotguns are in use by LAW enforcements and military boarding teams.

The shotgun in INF defenitely has a huge drawback, I would not play with it alone.
But it is effective in a squad. Advantage is that it is very powerful, you can quickly eliminate even large enemies not giving them a chance and after that load further rounds to keep it always full. A rifle can do the same on full auto, but you have like 50% less rounds in the mag and never know when the mag is going to end.
Aside this it is just fun to use.

I defenitely would prefer a Saiga with a 10 rounds magazine.

Some info about Combat Shotguns.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-10-02 17:03:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psychomorph wrote:
Of course if you have a PDW style SMG, than you can go for it. It is possible to take an MP5K instead of a pistol as last ressort, I prefer the pistol in co-op though because it weights less, gets aimed instantly (main point) and has a flashlight (if I use a loadout without it's useful) and I think it reloads faster. I can say the M9/Mk23 saved my virtual life more than dozent of times, hence I stick to it.

Another prob with some of INF's SMG's, aside the fact they are hipped on selection, is that you have the stock extending animation to go through. A pistol is brought to aim instantly.

Well, my experience with pistols is that they usually put me in a 50% survival chance situation - half of the times the pistol is enough, the oher half not. A Mini Uzi or MP5k on the other hand put me more into a 90% survival chance situation; note that both were chosen for their weight, fire rate and short transition time - a Micro Uzi may be lighter and shoots faster but the transition time get's you killed. Plus I don't really see a problem going hip on a single target at point blank range - assuming the enemy is alone and wasting half a mag or a full mag is an option.

Psychomorph wrote:
You name breaching shotguns, but there are also combat shotguns, which the M1S90 is. Combat shotguns are in use by LAW enforcements and military boarding teams.

Actually I was referring to shotguns in military use in general - I wasn't aware there were special breaching ones. As far as I know breaching rounds exist for standard 12/70 or 12/76 shotguns among with a variety of other rounds. The advantage of a shotgun is that it can use all of them, if it's either pump action or a good semi-auto one. The term combat shotgun seems a tad unappropriate to me, since almost all shotguns in military use are either civilian models, modified civilian models or based on civilian models - most exceptions remained in the prototype stage, including the AA12 and H&K CAWS. Probably the ones deserving the name combat shotgun the most are the SPAS12 and the Saiga, although the latter cleary has less versatility regarding special rounds, as it's based on the AK instead of being a purpose built "combat shotgun".

While shotguns have and will retain a place among military units their drawbacks of short range and the comparingly low ammount of ammo that can be carried compared to a 5.56x45 AR most probably will have them remain specialist weapons.

As I mentioned I rarely carry one in Inf, especially since the Inf one can only fire buckshot, but also I'm not a big fan of that kind of weapon - as I'm no big fan of MGs or sniper rifles [the latter being limited to Inf and its sniper rifle behavior]. I have most fun playing with a 30rd assault rifle or 20rd battle rifle, so that's what my loadouts have the most. But I still understand other people have fun with other weapons - and that's nice, because variety makes a squad interesting. There's nothing more boring than 4 guys hauling a MG/SAW..

To get back on topic: if there's a way of allowing a secondary with sufficient ammo on COOP1&2 I'm all for it.
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
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Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2008-10-02 18:02:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snakeye wrote:
Well, my experience with pistols is that they usually put me in a 50% survival chance situation - half of the times the pistol is enough, the oher half not. A Mini Uzi or MP5k on the other hand put me more into a 90% survival chance situation; note that both were chosen for their weight, fire rate and short transition time - a Micro Uzi may be lighter and shoots faster but the transition time get's you killed. Plus I don't really see a problem going hip on a single target at point blank range - assuming the enemy is alone and wasting half a mag or a full mag is an option.

To me a pistol is a 80 - 90 % chance, I can take even 2 Skaarj with it, but only if every shot hits, that's why the instant aim is so essencial to it.
I see most people who use a SMG in an emergency situation reloading after the incident (just like I do with a pistol), because of a lot of bullet wastage, may it be because of miss due to hipped or because they just hold the trigger and fire more rounds than necessary (often all 30 for a single Skaarj). Statistically I think I do not worse than them, so the pistol prooved reliabel in that case for me personally (I might try a MP5K in the future).

If I have a MP5 and slight more time, I'd defenitely would go for it, bring it to aim and proceed, but that would not exactly be an emergency situation.

Snakeye wrote:
Actually I was referring to shotguns in military use in general - I wasn't aware there were special breaching ones. As far as I know breaching rounds exist for standard 12/70 or 12/76 shotguns among with a variety of other rounds. The advantage of a shotgun is that it can use all of them, if it's either pump action or a good semi-auto one. The term combat shotgun seems a tad unappropriate to me, since almost all shotguns in military use are either civilian models, modified civilian models or based on civilian models.

Shotguns have lots of knockdown power that's why they are used in CQB. A double tap of 5.56 bears the slight danger that the tango can proceed, a shotgun usually makes them going down without exceptions.
Benelli doesn't make civilian shotguns, they are for both markets, but not specifically civilian.

As for co-op, well it has disavanatges but I wouldn't use it if it had no advantages, advantage is a fast takedown, I am point usually and bring down very quickly as much tangos down as possible (especially the higher priority, like rocketeers or snipers, works perfect), but that only works if I can retreat and reload while the team continues. Another advantage for co-op is that even on larger ranges, the pellets do not kill, but decimize the health, which allows the rifle men to finish them off faster.
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: 2008-10-02 23:03:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

Played with Ente and he often run dry with his G36 in the wrong moments, this is where I often stepped in with my fully loaded shotgun. If you reload inbetween the combat you make the shotgun virtually a weapon that does not need to be reloaded, except you run into the worst case scenario where you have multiple targets and fire off all rounds, than it becomes useless, but under "controlled" circumstances it is extremely uselfull and effective.

Btw, a shotgun is perfect for smaller targets like tentacles, flies, spiders and pupaes.


But hey, this discussion is more about bulk enhancement. A thought I had was a mutator that adds a pistol with like 6 mags, all without bulk.
That means you set in the .ini what pistol you want to use, this pistol will be added to your loadout when you spawn ingame, that means that you have to remove the pistol and mags from your actual loadout, because these will be additional items with usual bulk and pistol mags you add to the loadout will be treaten the same. Only the pistol set in .ini plus 6 mags will come bulkless.

That would allow you to use the extra space for additional mags and equipment or a secondary.

I had this idea observing the INF mutators, there are mutators that make all players use only one type of weapon, I thought about to have the defined pistol setup beeing used clientside, which is made to be bulkless. What you think, is that feasable?
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-10-03 05:28:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psychomorph wrote:
Played with Ente and he often run dry with his G36 in the wrong moments, this is where I often stepped in with my fully loaded shotgun.

Well, if I reload my SIG551 while everyone else is shooting at people until dry and step in I'll have a fully loaded SIG551 too. That's not a question of what kind of weapon you use - it's rather a tactic forced on you when using a shotgun because fully reloading it is a death sentence unless you have people covering you.

Psychomorph wrote:
If you reload inbetween the combat you make the shotgun virtually a weapon that does not need to be reloaded.

I'm sorry but Confused. Reloading single rounds may be easier in certain conditions - especially since you don't end up with a bunch of half empty mags (or half full, if you're an optimist). BUT that doesn't mean it the long time for a dry reload is any less lethal when in "suboptimal" conditions.

Psychomorph wrote:
Btw, a shotgun is perfect for smaller targets like tentacles, flies, spiders and pupaes.

So is a SIG551 - assuming the person holding it is able to aim. A double tap or 3rd burst will take down any of the aforementioned - only that you have 15 double taps or 10 3rd bursts available and a hell of a lot shorter dry reload - probably even a shorter tactical reload if you had to reload more than three shotgun rounds. Plus 3rd bursts are a quite effective way to keep track of your remaining ammo.

I'm not trying to do "shotgun bashing" or saying you shouldn't use one if you think it's fun and are adept at it - well, I did recommend not to use shotguns earlier, but that was more jokingly (is that a word?). I'm just saying from a "objective" point of view [Note: I don't believe in objective point of views] the shotguns - or to be precise the M1S90s - drawbacks outweigh it's advantages. You did say the shotgun can be a great tool in controlled circumstances - and I fully agree - that doesn't change the fact the SIG551 (and most other assault rifles) remains a great tool when things go a bit out of control.

Psychomorph wrote:
But hey, this discussion is more about bulk enhancement. A thought I had was a mutator that adds a pistol with like 6 mags, all without bulk.
That means you set in the .ini what pistol you want to use, this pistol will be added to your loadout when you spawn ingame, that means that you have to remove the pistol and mags from your actual loadout, because these will be additional items with usual bulk and pistol mags you add to the loadout will be treaten the same. Only the pistol set in .ini plus 6 mags will come bulkless.

That would allow you to use the extra space for additional mags and equipment or a secondary.

I had this idea observing the INF mutators, there are mutators that make all players use only one type of weapon, I thought about to have the defined pistol setup beeing used clientside, which is made to be bulkless. What you think, is that feasable?

Well, to be brief: No.

The reason why I dislike this idea is, that it forces a weapon to the player - and while most people probably could agree on using a Mk23 [which I assume will be the weapon decided on by the majority of players] I don't want one. I've been using a M9 ever since I played Inf - with only short sidetrips trying a M93R, 1911 and FiveseveN - and I want the M9 to remain my sidearm [unless some crazy guy ends up putting on the MoreBeretta mutie, then I'd be using a 98FS for added variety].

Wouldn't it make more sense to simply make pistols and pistol mags 0-bulk? It seems a hell of a lot easier than making a force-pistol-loadout-to-player-mutator plus I don't really see people packing three sidearms and a hundred mags each into COOP since pistols are last-resort weapons - so abuse is comparingly unlikely, I assume. That would free up ~8-12 bulk depending on which pistol and how many mnags for it are carried - enough for a secondary if you do a bit of ammo management.

Also I renew my plea for zero-bulking 40mm nades. The reason being not that I want to spam 40mm, but rather to be able to have sufficient variety of 40mm rounds on me when being a grenadier - since 40mm are comparingly weak in COOP anyway I think one should be allowed to carry a sufficient ammount of them.
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: 2008-10-03 06:56:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snakeye wrote:
Well, if I reload my SIG551 while everyone else is shooting at people until dry and step in I'll have a fully loaded SIG551 too. That's not a question of what kind of weapon you use - it's rather a tactic forced on you when using a shotgun because fully reloading it is a death sentence unless you have people covering you.

Snakeye wrote:
I'm sorry but Confused. Reloading single rounds may be easier in certain conditions - especially since you don't end up with a bunch of half empty mags (or half full, if you're an optimist). BUT that doesn't mean it the long time for a dry reload is any less lethal when in "suboptimal" conditions.

No, you are missing my point. Going after small targets like tentacles depletes rounds from your mag and when suddenly 2 Skaarj appear you wonder why the gun goes dry quicker than desired while it didn't feel like the mag was that dry allready, with the M1S90 you can get the shotgun easier back to 100% without facing a consequence later (half empty mags).
My point is not about shotguns beeing more lethal (rifles can do all that and even more), it is about them beeing more practical where a rifle can fail quickly (Ente's G36, could have happened to my rifle too, but no, I had a shotgun that was refilled). But I guess you need to try that to feel the advantage.

Snakeye wrote:
Well, to be brief: No.

The reason why I dislike this idea is, that it forces a weapon to the player - and while most people probably could agree on using a Mk23 [which I assume will be the weapon decided on by the majority of players] I don't want one. I've been using a M9 ever since I played Inf - with only short sidetrips trying a M93R, 1911 and FiveseveN - and I want the M9 to remain my sidearm [unless some crazy guy ends up putting on the MoreBeretta mutie, then I'd be using a 98FS for added variety].

I didn't mention a fixed weapon for this, as said, you can type into the .ini what pistol you want to use, any of them.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: 2008-10-03 10:30:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psychomorph wrote:
No, you are missing my point. Going after small targets like tentacles depletes rounds from your mag and when suddenly 2 Skaarj appear you wonder why the gun goes dry quicker than desired while it didn't feel like the mag was that dry allready, with the M1S90 you can get the shotgun easier back to 100% without facing a consequence later (half empty mags).
My point is not about shotguns beeing more lethal (rifles can do all that and even more), it is about them beeing more practical where a rifle can fail quickly (Ente's G36, could have happened to my rifle too, but no, I had a shotgun that was refilled). But I guess you need to try that to feel the advantage.

Actually I did mention that in the paragraph below the ones you quoted - and I have used shotguns [and still use them infrequently]. And I always end up in a situation where the shottie is dry because there were too little people around to support me. Or I ended up becoming Skaarj target practice because I reloaded three rounds and after start of reload a Skaarj came around [they seem to smell my reloads]. Also I wouldn't call a dry SIG551 (or any assault rifle with bolt catch) a "failed" one, because their reload is as fast as loading three shotgun rounds.

Psychomorph wrote:
I didn't mention a fixed weapon for this, as said, you can type into the .ini what pistol you want to use, any of them.

If you find someone who is able to load stuff from a client side ini please, please, please, please send me contact information, because I've been trying to do this for three months - and by now I always failed miserably, even when I though I had succeeded. Due to replication reading client side ini files (although they should be technically possible as far as I understood) is a pain in the ass - perhaps it's different for loadout mutators, but it most definetly is for weapon classes.
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