Another Infiltration Forum

[Kueltag]

[spm1138]

[Psychomorph]

Is there a way how the bulk can be somehow adjusted further to allow carrying a secondary weapon and few more magazines, somehow?

[Snakeye]

[Carpetsmoker]

Well, yes and no, I think the bulk limit is better because it prevents (some people) using 1000 rounds/minute.
It was a major annoyance, almost always when some ``realistic tac people'' were playing some not-so-realistic-and-tac-person (or people) joined and more or less ruined or game[1] ...

But it's far from perfect and realistic.
For that the old limit was better, some people didn't push the limit to the max and could use realistic loadouts that aren't possible anymore.

Psy made a long post about it with pictures at the BUF before it got deleted by the crash.

1: Just to explain/avoid any misunderstandings:
I do not want to tell anyone how they ``should'' play inf, play it the way you want to and have fun, but I do have a problem if my fun is (frequently) being ruined by it, especially when it's not needed (There are two servers, and we were here first).
It's like smoking, if you want to smoke, fine by me, but please don't blow the smoke in my face.

[Snakeye]

I see. But to be honest I didn't see the problem back then (with two server and the ability to kick people) and I definetly don't see it now with four servers being around (XploD being without bulk limit and more frequented by low-tacs it seems). And to be honest the only part I consider unrealistic on COOP1&2 is the ammount of 40mm grenades one can carry. The rest seems fine to me - I mean you don't run around with 2 ARs in a real military service. My loadouts in my COOPr list (r being for restriced bulk ) all have 15 to 18 mags for the main (usually AR sometimes SMG) and three for the backup (M9). Works like a charm when in groups of 4+ and good enough when alone (which shouldn't be possible anyway IIRC) - also I have a few loadouts with 10 mags +1 or 2 ammo cans for MGs when having some in my squad - not that they were ever needed until now.

Just out of pure curiosity: what loadout you'd like isn't possible/feasible due to the bulk limit?
_________________
"Anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing."

"This is a quasi-pleasant day. Almost not bad. Almost not bad at all..." Jon, 04.03.2009

[Psychomorph]

Carpetsmoker explained it basically.

It is absurd to carry 5 primaries and dozent of ammo, but it is also absurd to pick up a tinny MP5 and get a bulk increase like you packed 20kg in your backpack.

Clearly, you should not carry lots of ammo for both and it will be naturally decided which is your primary and which is your secondary; having a shotgun with enough ammo and a scoped rifle with only few mags automatically makes the shotgun beeing your primary combat weapon while the rifle is just for marksman purposes, having a rifle with enough mags and a shotgun with few rounds clearly makes the rifle beeing your primary and the shotgun a backup weapon.
Also if you do not want a secondary, just pack few more mags, for example for one of your team mates (a MG can), you will simply have more options, we actually did this with Stinkmarder before the adjusted bulk mutator, carrying few mags for the mate and it actually came to use (with our zero death gameplay philosophy... ahh the good times).

The argument that soldiers usually have one weapon is valid, but "realism" is not only what is, but also what can be. Skaarj may appear totally fiction, but if you think about fighting bigger and stronger enemies than it becomes less fiction (I even dare to see INF coop as a simulation of a possibility), combat adapts to the circumstances, not without reason hunters in the last century brought elephant rifles to hunt elephants, because elephants are different to lions or humans, as are Skaarj and Brutes to humans. Long speech short meaning; a soldiers adapts to the circumstances, the INF coop situation gives full automatic and a secondary weapon a meaning which might not apply when fighting other humans.
Also, israeli snipers always carry an M4 (earlier it was even an M16) with their M24 sniper rifle. Both light weight weapons so it makes sense.

As for what I'd like to use; my current combat shotgun loadout could have a short SMG with few mags as backup (pistol is emergency, not backup), I don't care if I would carry it in the backpack (since there would be enough room for it, because I have only a clay and few nades plus the primary ammo), but I at least could.
Also a marksman loadout, as the israeli snipers would be very efficient in co-op, have a shotgun for close and M16acog for the long ranges, you just have to sort the ammo right.

Also, for me it is not that much about having lots of weapons to switch between quickly, but about flexible "Einsetzbarkeit". As a shotgunner you are less of use when you reach an open area, you can change loadout for the map, but I prefer to keep my loadout because it is not "realistic" to magically exchange your weapons (unless I really want to use a new loadout at all). Also I always draw pistol when primary dry, unless I have enough time to select a secondary, both dictated by realism aswell.

[Snakeye]

I understand what you and Carpet mean and want and it's basically what I wanted back when bulk changed, though due to other reasons - I often [have to] play alone for some time until people join [or don't and I get tired] and having a secondary is more or less imperative to survive in this case.

I mildly disagree on the ammo point though. I've read quite a few book in Vietnam recently and there are more than just single cases of experienced trooper of both standard infantry and SOF/LRRP who took 1000rds of ammo for their M16s - in one case such a person even carried a shotgun with ~100rds and a .357 revolver in addition. Having two weapons with 20 mags each - depending on caliber and mag size of course - is possible. As is to carry around more than a single digit ammount of 40mm grenades. I'm not implying that such a loadout should be free of movement restriction, but it shouldn't make you slower than a rheumatic tortoise.

Just out of curiosity: why is using a pistol when dry more realistic than using a SMG that's about as easy to reach? If you were dropped on a planet inhabited by Skaarj and took along a primary and a secondary wouldn't you place the secondary (assuming it's small enough) easy to reach? I know there are examples (sniper rifle, shotgun) that have to be carried in a way that usually doesn't allow fast access, but with a MP5k or Mini Uzi it should be possible. And if a Skaarj comes running my way I'd rather be able to put 32rds at 1100rpm his way than 15rds at ~180rpm.

As for the shotgun: don't use one (personaly opinion fed by the fact I dislike this type of weapon and it's overglorification by hollywood). Shotguns in real life are carried because they are versatile tools that can fire a wide arrange of ammunition - including door breaching, less-lethal etc. Since none of this is in Inf the shotgun becomes a weapon that allows you to drop less enemies with one mag than a AR does plus needs a lot longer to reload with the added feature to be useless at any range beyond point blank. If I'd be dropped on a planet full of Skaarj a shotgun is the last primary I'd drag along - which is why I only have it as secondary in some loadouts and even then don't use it a lot.
_________________
"Anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing."

"This is a quasi-pleasant day. Almost not bad. Almost not bad at all..." Jon, 04.03.2009

[Psychomorph]

[Snakeye]

[Psychomorph]

[Psychomorph]

Played with Ente and he often run dry with his G36 in the wrong moments, this is where I often stepped in with my fully loaded shotgun. If you reload inbetween the combat you make the shotgun virtually a weapon that does not need to be reloaded, except you run into the worst case scenario where you have multiple targets and fire off all rounds, than it becomes useless, but under "controlled" circumstances it is extremely uselfull and effective.

Btw, a shotgun is perfect for smaller targets like tentacles, flies, spiders and pupaes.


But hey, this discussion is more about bulk enhancement. A thought I had was a mutator that adds a pistol with like 6 mags, all without bulk.
That means you set in the .ini what pistol you want to use, this pistol will be added to your loadout when you spawn ingame, that means that you have to remove the pistol and mags from your actual loadout, because these will be additional items with usual bulk and pistol mags you add to the loadout will be treaten the same. Only the pistol set in .ini plus 6 mags will come bulkless.

That would allow you to use the extra space for additional mags and equipment or a secondary.

I had this idea observing the INF mutators, there are mutators that make all players use only one type of weapon, I thought about to have the defined pistol setup beeing used clientside, which is made to be bulkless. What you think, is that feasable?

[Snakeye]

[Psychomorph]

[Snakeye]