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Unavoidable collateral damage?

 
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-02-20 12:27:39    Post subject: Unavoidable collateral damage? Reply with quote

I've heard from several sources that Stinkmarder seems to enforce a pretty serious anti-non-combatant killing policy while online - since I did not yet have the pleasure to play while he was online often I can't really say if it's true but I'd trust my sources.

The point of not killing plot-nalis (those four armed guys that open doors and such) is very clear to me, but anything below a plot-nali doesn't really matter much to me.

So my question(s) would be:
-will someone really be kicked for "accidentially causing unavoidable collateral damage" (i.e. shooting non-plot-nalis, "cows" and "rabbits" for fun)?

-If so would it be possible to get a clear set of rules of engagement, so one doesn't violate rules of which he was unaware.

-Lastly what's everybodys point-of-view on causing "unavoidable collateral damage"?
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Stinkmarder
[JgKdo]


Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Germany

PostPosted: 2008-02-20 22:43:47    Post subject: Re: Unavoidable collateral damage? Reply with quote

Snakeye wrote:
I've heard from several sources that Stinkmarder seems to enforce a pretty serious anti-non-combatant killing policy while online

I heard that, too. Wink

Quote:
will someone really be kicked for "accidentially causing unavoidable collateral damage" (i.e. shooting non-plot-nalis, "cows" and "rabbits" for fun)?

First, I will never kick or ban anyone without a warning.
Second, I rarely kick or ban anyone. IIRC it happend only one or two times in the past. You need to really piss me off to make me kick you.

So what's wrong with Nali killing?
Immersion. While playing INF Coop, I *am* on Na Pali fighting monsters. And anything I see what one would not do in real life (wasting ammo, killing non-combatants, too risky actions, etc.) reminds me that I'm just playing a game. Which ruins the fun for me.

Quote:
If so would it be possible to get a clear set of rules of engagement, so one doesn't violate rules of which he was unaware.

Since this is a reality mod, just apply real life ROE.

Quote:
Lastly what's everybodys point-of-view on causing "unavoidable collateral damage"?

Mine should be clear. Wink
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-02-21 07:14:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Since this is a reality mod, just apply real life ROE.


ROE are quite flexible depending on what kind of mission you're on (at least that's how I understood it) and in which kind of service you're in. They may vary from "avoid any civilian causulties at all costs" to "burn down the village and make sure no one survives". But I assume you meant the first interpretation Mr. Green

Quote:
So what's wrong with Nali killing?
Immersion. While playing INF Coop, I *am* on Na Pali fighting monsters. And anything I see what one would not do in real life (wasting ammo, killing non-combatants, too risky actions, etc.) reminds me that I'm just playing a game. Which ruins the fun for me.


Funny, never thought of it that way. I usually considered rabbits and cows as 25mm/40mm target practice/lunch and nalis as coward collaborators - I mean they DO know where loads of weapons are hidden in secret places, they could dual wield rocket launchers, but a single (or small bunch of) humans has to do their dirty work?

The point about immersion on the other hand does make a whole lot of sense to me - I guess if I was really there, not knowing how far the next escape possibility is, I'd sure as hell not waste ammo on anything not hostile.

Then again who actually says all nalis are non-hostile? Some of could help the skaarj as well as some help you; after all they have a history of collaboration.

Well, guess I'll take the risk and conserve ammo next time; I just hope we don't get lured into an ambush by nali in the process Mr. Green
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*Firebird*



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 245
Location: North-West-Germany

PostPosted: 2008-02-21 14:17:46    Post subject: Re: Unavoidable collateral damage? Reply with quote

Snakeye wrote:
unavoidable collateral damage" (i.e. shooting non-plot-nalis, "cows" and "rabbits" for fun)?
... what's everybodys point-of-view on causing "unavoidable collateral damage"?


I donīt like if people shoot at friendly individuals, but sometimes I understand it. Normally I think it is a kind of needless cruelty. Go and have a look to the face of a cow! You will be astonished, if you let feelings run. They are nosy and follow you a time, especially the younger ones, which are a little smaller. They are so twee.
Btw there is a lot to discover in maps if you really open your eyes for it. For example look at dead humans, you will find extracted still bumping hearts or some people with only one eye rest. Thats cruel enough I think. Wink
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Our team is well balanced. - We have problems everywhere. Tommy Prothro (since 1941)
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-02-22 06:29:19    Post subject: Re: Unavoidable collateral damage? Reply with quote

*Firebird* wrote:
I donīt like if people shoot at friendly individuals..


Strange, I never thought of Nali or animals as friendly individuals, but perhaps I don't because my interpretation of the COOP scenario seems to be somewhat different.

To give a little hint of how I see COOP I may add that my views are influenced by modern day conflicts, about which I did quite a bit of reading. Most modern day conflicts have one thing clearly in common: You usually don't know who exactly is a non-combatant and who is an enemy. Sure, those guys wearing enemy BDUs and carrying weapons are clearly enemies, but if you meet "non-combatants" they might be anything from friendlies to hostiles.

The second assumption I take is basically the Unreal storyline. You accidentailly end up on an unknown planet full of hostiles. You don't know the planet, the natives, the animals - you just want to get off of this place as soon and as alive as possible. Now you start running in some direction and see the first four-armed freak of your life - what would you do? I think avoiding contact would be the safest choice, but due to game limitations this is not entirely possible. Now lets assume the Nali spotted you, what would you do?

Before answering this question I'd like to point out a little real-life story. A SAS team was deployed to Iraq during the Gulf War 1991 to do recon work on mobile SCUD launchers. They were in a good position observing an Iraqi unit from safe distance, when a boy herding sheeps approached their position and finally spotted them when he was only a few meters away. The boy was clearly a non-combatant, but since he had seen them they were left with two choices: kill him (by knife or supressed weapon) or let him go and hope he won't tell anyone. I'm not completely sure if they decided on the second or just didn't have the heart to kill a kid, but the boy ran directly to the enemy troops and told them of the SAS team. The result was that all except one member of the team were killed or captured.

Now I think my interpretation of COOP is quite similar to the above situation. How would we know the Nali is not hostile or won't tell the enemy my position? The obvious answer is because it's a damn game and the manual says so. Unreal is a traditional "black and white" game where you know from the type of creature you see if he's hostile or friendly. There is (sadly) no such thing as a Nali gesturing you to follow him only to lure you into an ambush. Since I think such a "black and white" scenario is very unrealistic, so assuming all Nali are friendly just breaks my immersion - which is why I don't do it. Basically try to assume every Nali may tell a large Skaarj force your postion (I know it's terribly paranoid Mr. Green) and you may end up with the question: "is it safer to waste six rounds on a nali and possibly save one hundred round you'd need for the Skaarj he calls or assume the nali is sufficiently pro-human to just keep quiet?"

I guess I might do a bit too much interpretation/RPGing into this whole COOP, but that's the way I like to do it.

Lastly the point of shooting animals (in a non-immerson braking way) could as well be that you lost your MREs (Meal Ready to Eat) on whatever accident got you to NaPali and all that Skaarj killing really builds up a hunger Wink
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*Firebird*



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 245
Location: North-West-Germany

PostPosted: 2008-02-22 17:38:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand your view of that Snakeye, but I didnīt know the unreal storyline before, and I always thought, that the sense of our being on NaPali was, that we should help the Nalis to live a peaceful life again, without being maltreat by Skarrjs or other invaders. In that way the Nalis are our confederates and there is no need for them to set traps on us, because Skarrjs or Krulls treat the Nalis really cruel. Did you ever seen in maps how they do? I have seen it and it was horrible.
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All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure. Mark Twain (1835-1910)

Our team is well balanced. - We have problems everywhere. Tommy Prothro (since 1941)


Last edited by *Firebird* on 2008-02-24 19:49:58; edited 1 time in total
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Stinkmarder
[JgKdo]


Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Germany

PostPosted: 2008-02-22 17:44:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you follow the Unreal story you will find out that the Nali population takes you as their new messiah. So I think their help is straightforward.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-02-24 19:31:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Firebird* wrote:
In that way the Nalis are our confederates and there is no need for them to set traps on us, because Skarrjs or Krulls treat the Nalis really cruel. Did you ever seen in maps how they do? I have seen it and it was horrible.


Not worse that what humans have done to each other in the past 4000+ years. In fact I'd think what happens to the Nalis is toned down in comparison to what happened in real life on earth, but that's slightly off-topic.

Stinkmarder wrote:
When you follow the Unreal story you will find out that the Nali population takes you as their new messiah. So I think their help is straightforward.


Didn't really remember the entire storyline myself, but I think I do remember you start up as inmate of a prison ship that crashes on NaPali - now what are the chances the prisoner that escapes is a friendly and "good" guy helping Nali for no apparent reason, and what are the chances it's a sociopathic mass murderer enjoying to bring suffering to anything in his way?

To be honest, while I think the Unreal storyline is a great one, it's a tad too linear and one sided to me. I mean I did play the game once killing everything in my way - what are the chances Nali assume I'm their messiah when I kill everyone I see? A little more realistic reaction to how you behave would have been nice - but then this goes for many games. I always wondered through Half-Life 1 why every scientist and Security Guard was still helping me, after I probably killed more of them than the Government did (heey, Gordon did go a tad crazy when he first entered that strange dimension Mr. Green). Well, most probably because I left no witnesses Twisted Evil

Well, anyway, I think I can live through COOP without killing Nali and Animals - perhaps one or two when I feel hungry (animals that is, not Nali; they taste awful Smile)

Oh, and just to clarify (in case this post may have seeded doubt) I don't, didn't and never will intend to kill actual people; killing, war and such stuff is best done on a computer, where no one gets really hurt..
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*Firebird*



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 245
Location: North-West-Germany

PostPosted: 2008-02-24 20:53:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snakeye wrote:
*Firebird* wrote:
Skarrjs or Krulls treat the Nalis really cruel. Did you ever seen in maps how they do? I have seen it and it was horrible.
Not worse that what humans have done to each other in the past 4000+ years. In fact I'd think what happens to the Nalis is toned down in comparison to what happened in real life on earth.

That might be, but it makes it not better. Cruelty in one case doesnīt remove it in another. Wink

Snakeye wrote:
killing, war and such stuff is best done on a computer, where no one gets really hurt..

I agree. Smile
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Our team is well balanced. - We have problems everywhere. Tommy Prothro (since 1941)
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Carpetsmoker



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 381
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands

PostPosted: 2008-02-24 21:29:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Firebird* wrote:
Snakeye wrote:
killing, war and such stuff is best done on a computer, where no one gets really hurt..

I agree. :)


But what of the poor electrons? :(

Quote:
To be honest, while I think the Unreal storyline is a great one


What story? There is just a small reason for why you are there killing Kralls and Skaarjs.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-02-24 21:42:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carpetsmoker wrote:
But what of the poor electrons? Sad


Err, right, electrons..
..whatever you're smoking, try a tad less Very Happy . Also electrons don't get hurt in a computer - well at least I never heard one screaming Mr. Green

Carpetsmoker wrote:
What story? There is just a small reason for why you are there killing Kralls and Skaarjs.


With storyline I meant the atmosphere and all the small sidestorys you find on the translators/books of deceased humans and nali. Dunno if there's a better word for it in English.
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Chuckus



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 36

PostPosted: 2008-04-20 09:02:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

I take the killing of Nalis as part of the game. Generally the plot line involves crash landing on site and then fighting your way to a way out. Incidentally it turns out the locals think of you as messiah and lead you to weapons (that doesn't work in coop) and sometimes open gates for you, often at the cost of their life.

That makes them partisans. However, they do give you a god complex and, as human nature sometimes does, there;s nothing stopping you from getting drunk with power and abusing that authority. As a squad member I sympathize with the nali and try to tell troops not to kill them but we're stranded or isolated on a far away planet with limited resources and no clear way out. Sometimes people get a little crazy.

That's how i view it anyway.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-04-22 10:28:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuckus wrote:
That makes them partisans. However, they do give you a god complex and, as human nature sometimes does, there;s nothing stopping you from getting drunk with power and abusing that authority. As a squad member I sympathize with the nali and try to tell troops not to kill them but we're stranded or isolated on a far away planet with limited resources and no clear way out. Sometimes people get a little crazy.


I generally agree with you on most points - except perhaps for that sympathizing with Nali; I hate them freaks and nothing in the world will ever change that - especially since one of those FAFs opened a secret door with a Skaarj behind. Generally soldiers do tend to get frustrated when having causualties or being in a desperate situation and frustration may lead to unpredictable behavior - and if you think that atrocities only happen in dictatory lead armies or only by "evil" troops like the SS you may want to read up on a thing called the "My Lai" massacre.

Also the Nali are NOT partisans. Partisans were guerilla-like communist bands back in WWII that actively fought the German troops. Nalis don't fight. They are conscientious objectors with a tad of civil disobedience.

Anyway, I think the Nali seem to me the weakest part of the Unreal world - in a storytelling manner. First I personally don't believe that a pacifistic species is even possible; every species on our planet uses some form of violence to survive and no matter how much you want to deny it, the human species will always have violent behavior. That said the most unplausible part of the Unreal storyline is that the prisoner is viewed as some kind of Nali-messiah. Now please, if you are a fan of black-and-white stories and always play lawful-good paladins in RPGs (no, not rocket propelled grenades..) you might even be able to accept it, but if you have a tad of realism sense you might find it a bit unplausible. And if you put the story in the hand of an average evil player you might as well end up with this dialogue:

Nali Priest: Hail our messiah!
Prisoner: Uh, what please?
Nali Priest: You are our messiah!
Prisoner: You guys do realize I'm a prisoner and from a different species?
Nali Priest: You were imprisoned falsly messiah!
Prisoner: Yeah, right, I'm sure the few people I murdered back on Earth think that too. Uhm, how can you be sure it's me, I mean there are other two armed guys around here too?
Nali Priest: All the others are either demons or dead, so it must be you!
Prisoner: That makes sense; but doesn't it actually bother you I killed every of you four-armed freaks I saw?
Nali Priest: You didn't kill me messiah!
Prisoner: Uhm, that reminds me, I'm low on ammo and wanted to knife you..
Nali Priest: AAAARRRGGGGHHHHH

Guess that's how my first Unreal playthrough went back in '98 - though I matured a lot since then, now I wouldn't care about the ammo anymore Twisted Evil
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