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Pawns see through Movers
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2008-08-08 20:42:20    Post subject: Pawns see through Movers Reply with quote

I asked in oldunreal about that issue, the only answer was: "use trace instead of fasttrace in their code". Do you coders have an idea?
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-08-09 07:31:35    Post subject: Re: Pawns see through Movers Reply with quote

Psychomorph wrote:
I asked in oldunreal about that issue, the only answer was: "use trace instead of fasttrace in their code". Do you coders have an idea?


Nope - but I think I could take a look at it; after all ScriptedPawn code is not a complete stranger to me anymore. Will check and report if I can find out anything..
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-08-10 17:55:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok did take a short look into the ScriptedPawns code; it seems all of them use Trace - FastTrace seems to be only used in a couple of Scripts at all - most of them being gamemodes.

Perhaps you investigate further at Oldunreal?
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
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Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2008-08-11 17:37:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

[]KAOS[]Casey wrote:
some of the traces need to hit actors then, be careful in changing them, some don't need it..

HitActor = Trace(HitLocation, HitNormal, End, Start, true);

= hits actors


HitActor = Trace(HitLocation, HitNormal, End, Start, false);

= doesn't hit actors


Maybe you take a look in the thread and talk with the guys?
http://www.oldunreal.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1218145497/5#5
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: 2008-08-11 18:02:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roger, Wilco after checking the new Information with the code..
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-09-04 19:56:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it's been a while and I have to admit I nearly forgot about this, at least until Carpet reminded me of this yesterday. By now I did made a short look at the code for scriptedpawns but, well, it's about 5000 lines of code so don't expect results too soon.

In any case I might have an explanation why SpaceMarines act differently to Unreal monsters: they're derived from the Bots class and not from the ScriptedPawn class, which is used for all(?) other monsters.

In any case I'll try to get into this issue and try to find out wether or not its (easily) fixable..
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: 2008-10-04 14:16:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I did take a look at the ScriptedPawns code and from what I figured out the basic functions to determine wether or not a line-of-sight is present are in the pawn class defined as native, meaning they're loaded from a DLL at compile time - so no way to access this code - and if the problem lies within this code I suppose it's not possible to fix it.

What strikes me as odd is the reported different behavior of space marines. While they are Bots and not ScriptedPawns [which all other Unreal monsters are] both Bots and Scriptedpawns are again derived from the Pawn class, which would imply the basic hearing/seeing functions should not be the root of the problem, since SpaceMarines would be able to see throuh doors as well.

So before further investigating this my questions are:
1.: Are we [by which I mean you] absolutely positive SpaceMarines don't see through doors?
2.: if yes, can you tell me a level that contains space marines so I can try a few tests - I know I'm being lazy here, but taking a look at every map I have to find spacemarines is a bit much work for me right now.
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: 2008-10-04 15:07:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

RTNP has the ship wrackage map with marines and Redeem Your Space has a place with many marines. I will find the names of the maps later.

As for beeing sure they don't see through walls. I think yes, because once Stinkmarder gave them weapons it became dangerous to enter a room, because you never knew what's in there. With Skaarj troopers you are often warned who is in the room and what weapons are used, because they start to shoot at the door.
That's why I would like to see this problem beeing solved, because it allows us a surprize attack, but makes it at the same time an unestimateable risk, both aspects would make the gameplay MUCH more interessting.
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
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Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2008-10-13 14:25:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marines in maps.

RTNP
Crashsite2

Redeem Your Space
42Gateport
43City
44OldSection
45HighTown
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-10-14 10:52:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tried RYS 42 and 43 yesterday on XploD - although the results I received where somewhat inconclusive due to Marines not having weapons on this server, so I wasn't really able to see wehther they reacted before or after spotting me. An interesting point is, that when I spawned on 42 the Marines didn't start to react until I shot the first one. As per my first guess the most plausible explanation for the different behavior is the derivation of the space marines from bots while all other monsters are scriptedpawns - so I'll try to center my efforts on this difference.

Another question occurs: I played crashsite2 offline a bit and it seemed to me the Mercs on this map didn't see me through doors - is the door problem a online only thing? (I don't play much offline..)
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: 2008-10-14 14:28:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Best way would be Stinkmarder to vote the Redeem Your Space maps, because there is still no voting mutator on his server (unless you want to play through all 40 maps, I bet the server will crash before reaching) and because he gave the marines weapons.
As far I remember the marines never reacted untill you opened the door.

Not sure right now, but I believe monsters seeing through movers is an online thing.
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ICBM



Joined: 02 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: 2008-10-14 16:19:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psychomorph wrote:


As for beeing sure they don't see through walls. I think yes, because once Stinkmarder gave them weapons it became dangerous to enter a room, because you never knew what's in there. With Skaarj troopers you are often warned who is in the room and what weapons are used, because they start to shoot at the door.
That's why I would like to see this problem beeing solved, because it allows us a surprize attack, but makes it at the same time an unestimateable risk, both aspects would make the gameplay MUCH more interessting.


Agreed. It will up the difficulty a lot so players will be forced to use more tactics like door-breaching charges and clay traps. But even with the current see-trough pawns opening doors is quite tricky sometimes. 5 ppl often just can't lay down enough firepower to take down rows of incoming Skaarj, who's weapons seem less hindered by there fallen comrades. Even when killed they still have to go thru the dead animation, wich blocks the line of fire to long for the machineguns. Even 2 ppl with Minimis on continued fast fire often cant stop hordes of Skaarj when they are 15 meters from you. 3 Machineguns might do the trick, but what kind of rambo unit caries 3 MG's?

Would it be possible to make fallen bodies impassable (unless gibbed)? That way you can keep the Skaarj at a bit more distance.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-10-14 17:07:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

ICBM wrote:
3 Machineguns might do the trick, but what kind of rambo unit caries 3 MG's?


Well, "my" unit usually does - if we are in full strength that is; though it varies a bit, since we all do change loadouts as we see fit. Im my book this falls into the "adapt to new environment" part of COOP that has been mentioned before; stronger and tougher enemies (plus lots or really lots of them depending on the server) do call for a stronger emphasis on weapons that can deal a higher ammount of damage over a longer period of time - this makes having 2-3 MGs/SAWs in a 5-6 men squad not too unrealistic. But to be honest, if 2 SAWs can't stop an enemy unit then I doubt anything can, since having three MGs/SAWs on the team and being able to bring them all into play are two different things.
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ICBM



Joined: 02 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: 2008-10-14 18:38:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snakeye wrote:
But to be honest, if 2 SAWs can't stop an enemy unit then I doubt anything can, since having three MGs/SAWs on the team and being able to bring them all into play are two different things.


Well, yesterday we where mowing down Titans quite nicely. The only prob was that your damn M60 jammed. Razz Now If the machinegunners managed to stay together more often and come up with some 'Rules of engagement'.. Like, first kill the fast moving skaarj and rocket launching enemies, then Brutes, then the lesser enemies. And when in front of a door, have one gunner concentrate on the enemies on the left side of the door, and the other the right side, so that you will never get into each other l.o.f. (big problem).
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"I do not aim with my hand, He who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father. I aim with my eye.

I do not shoot with my hand, He who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father. I shoot with my mind.

I do not kill with my gun, He who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."
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EGM<P>



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 136
Location: ENSCHEDE-NETHERLANDS

PostPosted: 2008-10-15 16:51:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

well my tks happened when a titan stomps the ground and make everybody jump into the air and land in front of me while i was shooting Very Happy
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