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Climbing

 
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2008-10-03 19:10:53    Post subject: Climbing Reply with quote

Maybe one of you experienced coders can isolate the climbing code from the True Scale mutator and make a climbing mutator?

I ask for this not just because climbing is cool, but it would be of much use. I remember on XploD we had lots of rocket troopers to deal with, some slipped through the fire line and flanked us, if we could get on the big crates we would had a much better strategical postion. Needless to say that it would be extremely usefull on so many maps (many stm's crates would not be necessary).

I don't remember though how high you can climb in True Scale, this could be adjusted maybe.


One thing would be awesome, if you could climb down. Climbing down means you can climb down a corner of a very high object and let yourself fall, which makes the fall significantly shorter.

Roping would be awesome too, but that's another topic.
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CalicoJack



Joined: 27 Dec 2008
Posts: 1

PostPosted: 2009-06-12 17:58:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

im gonna try it, sounds like a good idea, at least for coop
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-06-15 06:24:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just downloaded and took a small look at the code - out of curiosity, how does one climb using TS (I didn't try it out yet)? The readme seemed a bit vague to me, plus the term "ninja" wasn't exactly encouraging either.

Other than that it seems the only thing you would need is to scrap all the weapon replacements, clean the player-class code from not-climbing features it might have (think the readme mentioned stamina stuff, although if it's a good stamina change perhaps it should stay) hit compile and ship it. It may be wise to ask the original coders for permission and do a bit of testing though..
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2009-06-15 13:52:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original coder (Toad) left the community, probably before the middle ages, so I'd suggest to just give him credits in the read me, no asking for permission.

That is what I basically was saying Snakeye, extract the climbing code, that's it.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-06-15 16:26:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I apparently wrongly assumed someone actually tried this mutator before filing this request, as use of this will negate the use of ANY custom weapon with attachments (i.e. most INFMOD weapons) plus it may or may not cause troubles with a jillion other mutators that actually believe the player class is still the old one. So on short notice: forget it.

On second thought [having spent a resonable 5mins with the mutator] the "climbing" implementation is actually horrible [or as good as it is possible without adding new animations or actual climbing] since it basically is just a conditional jumping height implementation; also the ninja "yell" (or whatever you might call it) with ninja mode on (who came up with the term ninja mode anyway?) is.. is.. is.. facepalmesque at best (did I mention I think the term ninja mode is horribly infantile?).

Don't get me wrong, I probably wouldn't have done any better than the original coder (or gotten that far at all) since I assume this is mostly an engine limitation, but that's the kind of thing where I'd say let it be since it can't be done right anyway.
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2009-06-15 21:04:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

No idea what you mean, when I tried it (who assumed it wasn't used before suggesting?) there was no ninja call or so, it was just pure climbing (nothing exeggerated as far as I know), no matter how it looks (because of no animations, that should not be an argument for a game such old) it worked great, I could (in real life human possibly) climb on things that were unreachable by the allready unrealistically high INF jump.
I instantly had to think how good it would be for co-op. I remember that crazy thousand skaarj warriors army situation on XploD2, there were large metal crates standing around, in real life a human could have managed to get up there, in INF you couldn't, that would be a great save point, but instead we were wiped out hundreds of times by the skaarj.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-06-16 06:28:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you sure your sound was on? While it didn't seem to be a custom sound, it did play a strange groaning yell when I hit jump a second time.

Apart from that I didn't find the climbing to be actual climbing but rather condition based high jumping - i.e. if you don't stand before an obstacle you jump low and if you do you jump high or very high (depending on bNinjaMode(?) in the ini and if you hit jump a second time). While this is better than standard Inf jump on the first look, it's by no way climbing - the latters on the maps are the closest thing I ever saw to climbing in Inf, and they're basically stairs IIRC. Climbing IMO would require to be able to move up and down on a reasonably inclined surface or a steeply inclined surface with a reachable top, not just "hit jump twice" and youre on.

While you will be able to reach locations which you weren't able to reach before, using this will prevent you from reaching other locations that require a long jump, since standard jump height is drastically redcued. So you better have translocators available if you add those modifications, since there already are quite a few maps with jumps one can barely do now. Basically this is the classic "lesser of two evils" situation. Having the unrealistic Inf-jump prevents you from reaching otherwise reachable loacations, using this mod will too, just other ones.

But my main point remains that use of the jump code invariable results in the player class being modified, which causes a load of mods (including but not limited to custom weapons) which actually interact with the player class to stop working. Just fire up this mod with an M16A4 with attachments - you'll end up having a naked M16A4.

While it might or might not be possible to circumvent this, there's still the question of how one would use the high jump code - because reduction of the standard jump height will cause more trouble on COOP than high jumping will solve, and just adding the high jump will make things look just more unrealistic.
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2009-06-16 22:08:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snakeye wrote:
Are you sure your sound was on? While it didn't seem to be a custom sound, it did play a strange groaning yell when I hit jump a second time.

I really don't remember something like this, I will check the mut again.

Snakeye wrote:
Apart from that I didn't find the climbing to be actual climbing but rather condition based high jumping - i.e. if you don't stand before an obstacle you jump low and if you do you jump high or very high (depending on bNinjaMode(?) in the ini and if you hit jump a second time).

Hmmmm, I know IBT does it like this, but as far as I know in TrueScale it was not a jump, but a slower paced lift up. I tested it in a RYS map (the one with alot of aztec stair pyramids), I was able to jump regulary on the stairs but lost stamina, holding the jump key while looking at the edge slowly lifted me up and while at the right height I was pushed forward so I could stand on the higher surface with the feet, less stamina lost. It was a real (relatively slower paced) climbing, minus the animations (I observed this in the 3rd person aswell).

Of course, I tested it some longer time ago, but that is what amazed me, which why I asked for it. If it was just a higher ninja jump with a ninja yell, I hardly would suggest it. I have 2 or 3 TrueScale zip's, maybe I gave you guys a wrong one? I'll check on that.

Oh and btw, the one I tested had heavily modified gravity settings. It felt a bit slow motion compared to standart INF gravity, but appeared a little more realistic after a time. If you didn't experience this, than I most probably uploaded the wrong file/version.

Snakeye wrote:
But my main point remains that use of the jump code invariable results in the player class being modified, which causes a load of mods (including but not limited to custom weapons) which actually interact with the player class to stop working. Just fire up this mod with an M16A4 with attachments - you'll end up having a naked M16A4.

Of course it does, but I didn't ask Stinkmarder to put this mutator on the server as it is, but asked for a coder to extract only the jumping climbing code lines to make a separated climbing mutator, without all the weapon class changes True Scale has. Sure, I have no idea what negative side effecs the climbing lines would have, but only the coder could find out (after trying).
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-06-17 06:05:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psychomorph wrote:
Hmmmm, I know IBT does it like this, but as far as I know in TrueScale it was not a jump, but a slower paced lift up. I tested it in a RYS map (the one with alot of aztec stair pyramids), I was able to jump regulary on the stairs but lost stamina, holding the jump key while looking at the edge slowly lifted me up and while at the right height I was pushed forward so I could stand on the higher surface with the feet, less stamina lost. It was a real (relatively slower paced) climbing, minus the animations (I observed this in the 3rd person aswell).

Hold jump key? Hmm, I just hit it once when in front of smaller edges and twice when in front of higher edges. Didn't try hold, perhaps I should. If that works it might be worth investigating further - especially since you can disable the ninja action..

Psychomorph wrote:
Of course it does, but I didn't ask Stinkmarder to put this mutator on the server as it is, but asked for a coder to extract only the jumping climbing code lines to make a separated climbing mutator, without all the weapon class changes True Scale has. Sure, I have no idea what negative side effecs the climbing lines would have, but only the coder could find out (after trying).

The M16A4 isn't altered by TS - or at least it shouldn't be. IIRC only the original Inf weapons are replaced, so the M16A4 (and any other custom weapon) shouldn't be affected by that section of the code. What I actually assumed first, was that TS replaced the player class in an incompatible way, so that the custom weapons wouldn't be able to access the player class properly. Further investigation yesterday proved this to be a mistake on my part, since the modified player class used by TS is still a child of the class the custom weapons access - so technically they should work. This actually would imply that another section of the mutator code affects the observed incompatibility with custom weapons, although I'm not yet sure which one it is - I have a few suspicions by now, but it will need further investigation.
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2009-06-17 06:40:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the M16A4 shares some code with the original M16A2, or something INF original? And since TS changes some weapon related things, I'd expect it not to be a surprize that WP guns have issues (because WP came long after TS' last release). What if removing all weapon alterations from TS would also remove the issues with the WP guns? Just a theoretical question. I guess the only way to answer it is by trying it. Very Happy
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-06-17 09:53:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psychomorph wrote:
Maybe the M16A4 shares some code with the original M16A2, or something INF original?

Unless it's classes would be children of the M16A2 class (which they aren't IIRC) they could have identical code and wouldn't be affected. Since the M4 doesn't work either, it definetly is a problem with TS that isn't caused by the weapon mod part. But there's more code in TS than just the weapon replacements and climbing, so I wouldn't rule out the possibility to get climbing alone to work.

Edit:
Holding the jump key doesn't change anything for me. You sure you uploaded the correct version?

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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-06-18 15:21:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, did try [to only apply the changed player class] and it still fucks up the attachments on custom weapons. My current suspicion is, that this is caused by the way the player class is (has to be?) replaced, since the custom weapon mutators and classes didn't seem to actually use functions from the player class itself, but from its parent-parent-class (or so), so technically the changed player class should be compatible. I wouldn't wonder if scewing with it would allow loadout information to get lost though.

I'm not really sure I really want to investigate this any further, since it could actually be some really fucked up undocumented UT/UnrealScript stuff, plus the version uploaded here isn't really convincing me it's been done nicely enough to warrant further use of time..
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2016-03-22 22:10:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried this mutator and offline it actually works.

The jumping is totally great, if you run forward and jump, you make a forward leap and the stationary jump is really low, but close to stuff like crates you climb on them without jumping sounds.

The only issue is that human sized objects can't be climbed on (you can in real life though), so if someone could modify that mutator to increase the climbing height up to slightly higher than the characters height, that would be awesome and would allow to reach higher areas realistically in co-op.

What I like about this mutator furthermore is that if you jump from greater speed on, say, a lower platform, you go into crouch automatically, could be good for safety.

The gravity of grenades is a bit changed, they stay in the air longer.


Why didn't we try this before?
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