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ICBM



Joined: 02 Sep 2008
Posts: 51

PostPosted: 2008-10-03 16:30:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

I for one am very pleased with the teammates carying shotguns. I use the G3A3 for it's superior iron sight (and thus accuracy), steady recoil and the 7.62 round. The obsvious cons are the 20 round mags and lack of atachments, that is where I need backup. When engaging a big number of skaarj in narrow spaces I can quickly take down 3 of them before I run out. At that point they are almost upon me and I have to back down into hallway while franticly reaching for my pistol. I was saved many times by shotgun carying teammates who could take down the skaarj who charged side by side around the corner. In those cases a shotgun is more usefull the a rifle, who have to take down targets one at a time.
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I do not shoot with my hand, He who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father. I shoot with my mind.

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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-10-03 16:44:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean you saw a shotgun take down two skaarj with one shot?
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2008-10-03 18:55:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, he means because of the shotgun's (knockdown) power at very close ranges you can eliminate multiple targets fast (if you can handle it), which is why I like it.
Sometimes rifles perform not as nicely in that situation.


Last edited by Psychomorph on 2008-10-03 22:14:51; edited 1 time in total
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ICBM



Joined: 02 Sep 2008
Posts: 51

PostPosted: 2008-10-03 19:36:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^ Yep.
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"I do not aim with my hand, He who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father. I aim with my eye.

I do not shoot with my hand, He who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father. I shoot with my mind.

I do not kill with my gun, He who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-10-04 08:35:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not want to conradict - as your views are obviously backed by playing on a server, but:
1 shotgun pellet does 10 damage.
1 shot contains 15 pellets.
1 Skaarj (stanard) contains 210 health.
That's two shots per skaarj.

1 M16A2 rounds does 40 damage.
1 Burst contains 3 rounds (Mr. Green)
1 Skaarj (stanard) contains 210 health.
That's two bursts per skaarj.

Now it may take a tiny bit longer for the burst to fire - but then the M16A2 has far more manageable recoil (usually) allowing for a faster second burst - plus the M16A2 is more "cost" efficient using 240 damage to kill a 210 health target Mr. Green. And before getting this out of hand I'd like to state that [in my opinion] multiple enemies are work intended for machine gunners or squad automatic riflemen.

I don't see the shotgun discussion leading anywhere - there will be people who like them because they find the advantage(s) of a shotgun fit their style of play and the disadvantages don't interfere with it. And there will be people who think oherwise.

Now trying to get the ship a bit back on course: what's wrong with the zero-bulking of pistols instead of making a mutator that reads client side ini files to determine which pistol is wanted? It's less work, possible with already used mutators and you don't have to change all your loadouts AND create an Ini file that contains the pistol you want to use - plus it allows to have different pistols in different loadouts. So what's wrong?

PS: Oh, and please don't use the term "knockdown power" in gun related context - it's more or less proven a gun (and the bullet it shoots) won't knock down either shooter or target. For Inf related context damage seems a more appropriate term to me.
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Psychomorph



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 384
Location: Europe

PostPosted: 2008-10-04 14:53:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the 6 rounds of the 2 x 3 round burst are gone if fired, a shotgun can be refilled again, that's why I said shotguns are very good against smaller targets, because you usually need only one shot for them (which can be "restored" again) and that keeps the rifles of the riflemen full to deal with bigger targets. The tactical advantage is clear to me.
I have seen people roaming every pupae and tentacle with 5.56 and then wondering about the click when 3 Skaarj appear, leaving the smaller targets for a shotgun (if available) is clearly a sign of intelligent team play. Wink

Another aspect as I tried to mention with briging Ente into play, was that a shotgun can be kept full at any time (and the user knows it) and hence effectively hold back a wave of attacking enemies untill the riflemen reload their rifles and keep going (where the shotgunner can retreat and reload).
Of course you can do that with rifles any time, but as said, a shotgunner knows how long he can keep the "shield", which gives him a more steady position. Again a tactical aspect. Wink


Snakeye wrote:
Now trying to get the ship a bit back on course: what's wrong with the zero-bulking of pistols instead of making a mutator that reads client side ini files to determine which pistol is wanted? It's less work, possible with already used mutators and you don't have to change all your loadouts AND create an Ini file that contains the pistol you want to use - plus it allows to have different pistols in different loadouts. So what's wrong?

If pistols and ammo can be made zero bulk separately, than I'm all for it, problem however is, that it will allow carrying 5 pistols and dozent of ammo without restriction, which brings back the old problem, not at the scale as it used to be, but still noticeably.
My suggestion was to have only one pistol and few magazines at zero bulk, while any further "exeggeration" would be disallowed, but I think that would not really solve the bulk issue at the end, because the little extra bulk you get seems not to be enough to allow you carrying another rifle and ammo (which is clearly heavier than the pistol).

We need to change the whole bulk system. The problem if I remember correctly was, that you can have 1 point for bulk, but not 0.5, what if we make ammo come in bulk packs?
Means; selecting one mag from the menue adds 1 bulk point, but you get 2 magazines (1 point = 2 magazines), dealing with pistol ammo, you get 3 mags for 1 point.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2008-10-04 17:27:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psychomorph wrote:
But the 6 rounds of the 2 x 3 round burst are gone if fired, a shotgun can be refilled again, that's why I said shotguns are very good against smaller targets, because you usually need only one shot for them (which can be "restored" again) and that keeps the rifles of the riflemen full to deal with bigger targets. The tactical advantage is clear to me.
I have seen people roaming every pupae and tentacle with 5.56 and then wondering about the click when 3 Skaarj appear, leaving the smaller targets for a shotgun (if available) is clearly a sign of intelligent team play. Wink

I've acknowledged this advantage of a shotgun before and as far as I see it's the only one the weapon has - apart from the psychological advantages the wielder may perceive. This advantage is however bought with the distinct disadvantages of being "useless" at medium or long range and exceedingly long reload times when the shit hits the fan - making the shotgun user effectively a pistol user in an overrun scenario. Disposing of smaller targets with an assault rifle is no problem at all as long as at least one or two team members keep their fire until needed - which seems like intelligent team play to me too, although it happens seldom enough.

When in larger teams I usually hold my fire until the two point men run dry, then step ahead if needed. Using this approach with two assault rifles has the distinct advantage, that the reload time for the assault rifle is shorter, which results in a larger volume of fire being brought upon the enemy - with a shotgunner the rifleman has to cover the shotgunner reloading for a longer time than he'd spend covering another rifleman. This will only really make a difference when facing a large number of enemies - but I'd rather have a buddy beside me that reloads faster than one that reloads slower when being assaulted by multiple skaarj.

Psychomorph wrote:
Another aspect as I tried to mention with briging Ente into play, was that a shotgun can be kept full at any time (and the user knows it) and hence effectively hold back a wave of attacking enemies untill the riflemen reload their rifles and keep going (where the shotgunner can retreat and reload).
Of course you can do that with rifles any time, but as said, a shotgunner knows how long he can keep the "shield", which gives him a more steady position. Again a tactical aspect. Wink

As I said above, having one full assault rifle can be easily achieved by intelligent teamplay. And for holding back a wave of enemies a MG/SAW is the more appropriate choice, since it is much more able to keep a volume of destruction until everyone else is back in action than a 8rd shotgun will ever be.

It appears you know how to use a shotgun effectively and that's nice. You like using shotguns and that's nice too. It doesn't change the fact that the shotgun per se is a very limited weapon in Inf - and doesn't do anything distinctly better than an assault rifle or a MG.

Psychomorph wrote:
If pistols and ammo can be made zero bulk separately, than I'm all for it, problem however is, that it will allow carrying 5 pistols and dozent of ammo without restriction, which brings back the old problem, not at the scale as it used to be, but still noticeably.
My suggestion was to have only one pistol and few magazines at zero bulk, while any further "exeggeration" would be disallowed, but I think that would not really solve the bulk issue at the end, because the little extra bulk you get seems not to be enough to allow you carrying another rifle and ammo (which is clearly heavier than the pistol).

It apparently is possible with the custombulk mutator - and which sane person takes five pistols around? The pistol in COOP is a last resort weapon, even if you have 99 mags each - because it's not up to the job to down more than one or two enemies in any sensible time. If you want to go 100% sure this won't cause people going pistol-rambo you may leave the 93R at its bulk, since it's the only sidearm that can fire bursts. Don't get me wrong but I think you're a bit rambo paranoid in this case - even if people end up having five pistols and 99 mags each, they'd be of no real use - you CAN'T inflict any reasonable damage in COOP with a pistol. ANY ammount of enemies exceeding a single skaarj will most probably rip you apart before you're done with your second mag.

Look, I'm not opposed to the idea to allow one pistol with 5 mags at no bulk, but the ammount of work needed for it just is too big. You would need to make client side ini reading possible in a reliable way, then you'd have to come up with extra code to interpret the ini file entry for every pistol (inlcuding attachment variations for the Mk23) and add the selcted pistol and ammo at zero-bulk. [And I still think the client side Ini part would be the hardest]

When you have reached this point EVERY player has to alter his loadout to eliminate the pistol and fill in his desired pistol in the Ini - but only for the servers running the mutator. For finishing touch you'd have to exit Inf and edit the Ini if you wanted another sidearm - instead of simply switching loadouts or editing them in Inf. From my point of view it's too much work [especially for the end users, who tend to be unable to read readme files, let alone edit Inis] for too little gain.

Psychomorph wrote:
We need to change the whole bulk system. The problem if I remember correctly was, that you can have 1 point for bulk, but not 0.5, what if we make ammo come in bulk packs?
Means; selecting one mag from the menue adds 1 bulk point, but you get 2 magazines (1 point = 2 magazines), dealing with pistol ammo, you get 3 mags for 1 point.

I'm not sure this is possible. IIRC bulk is attached to an instance of a class and a mag will always be one instance a class. Plus changing a system that affects so many objects in Inf is a huge ammount of work - I'd even think it might be cheaper to change bulk from integer to float - and THATs a immensely stupid idea in terms of work and revenue.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-04-30 05:32:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this is a quasi-necromantic act, but I recently had the [questionable] pleasure of playing a bit alone on COOP2 - the MoreMonster seems off btw - and found myself in the [questionable] pleasure of running out of ammunition in the process of trying to take down the second Titan in the map - technically I got killed while throwing my last nade, but then throwing nades at Titans is not what I consider a sane behavior anyway, but more of a last resort hope after both my FAMAS and M9 ran dry. My pain was worsened by the fact that after re-running 3/4 of the map the Titan fell after half a mag.

On another incident [unrelated to the first] I was again alone on COOP2 on one of those maps that need artistic abilities - in this case a sprint over an edge to hit another edge and survive the fall - and missed by an inch or two because my bulk was a bit high I suppose. I might add that the loadout was a tad on the heavy side, since it included a FAL.

Now when the new restricted bulk system was added I tried to keep my loadouts below the stamina loss limit, but meanwhile I found this to be uneffective when around alone or in small teams, so I usually drag around my AR/BR with 18mags of 5.56 (540rds*) or 20mags of 7.62 (400rds), my M9 with 5 mags (yes, I ran dry on some occasions with my previous 3 mag policy) and 4-5 M67s (2 are definetly not enough). Now as the above described incidents indicate those loadouts can be insufficient both in terms of ammunition and stamina reduction - although not by much.

Since setting pistol mag bulk to zero doesn't seem to be an accetped option, I thought perhaps we could set pistol bulk to zero (or to actual bulk minus 5 for sidearms heavier than the M9)? That would free up a bit of bulk for more ammo, more stamina or more nades to use - as I would see it without any serious ramboing increase possibility, since you technically could carry all pistols without penalty, but their ammo isn't free.

*For those who cry out loud 540rds of 5.56 is unrealistic: I've by now read and seen on many occasions report that soldiers in Vietnam carried between 800 and 1400 (yes onethousandfourhundred) rounds for their M16s and were still able to move at reasonable speed (and not drown in rice paddies or mud Wink). Now I'm well aware not all that ammo was in mags, but since Inf doesn't have boxed ammo and no transfer boxed ammo to mags option I'm pretty sure carrying around 18 mags is well within realistic boundaries.

PS: Did I mention MoreMonsters seems off?
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Stinkmarder
[JgKdo]


Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 221
Location: Germany

PostPosted: 2009-04-30 20:45:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snakeye wrote:
On another incident [unrelated to the first] I was again alone on COOP2 on one of those maps that need artistic abilities - in this case a sprint over an edge to hit another edge and survive the fall - and missed by an inch or two because my bulk was a bit high I suppose.

Just a side note: In most cases you can throw your stuff first, wait for your stamina to become normal, make the jump and pick up your stuff again.

Quote:
Did I mention MoreMonsters seems off?

Fixed.
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 461
Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-05-01 07:39:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stinkmarder wrote:
Just a side note: In most cases you can throw your stuff first, wait for your stamina to become normal, make the jump and pick up your stuff again.

Making the already unpleasant Jump'n'Run excercises on certain maps even more complicated - plus the only single thing I could throw away to seriously reduce bulk is the AR or the pistol, which I'm going to throw away: "under no circumstance whatsoever". So basically I'll have to drop a couple of mags and hope I'll get to pick them up, which kind of defeats the purpose of taking sufficient ammunition along..

So I take this is a "No" to pistol zero bulking?

Stinkmarder wrote:
Quote:
Did I mention MoreMonsters seems off?

Fixed.

Thanks Mr. Green - while I'm not really a fan of hordes while alone, I recently got bored on USP maps - finishing a map alone with zero deaths and 5 mags left doesn't feel natural..
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Midwinter



Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Posts: 20
Location: Valencia, Spain

PostPosted: 2009-05-02 20:08:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope you guys still play regularly, because i am itching to get some INF action as soon as real life (TM) stops interfering Smile
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-05-03 08:04:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on how you define "you guys" the answer is yes - Biene, XploD, Crazy, Fire, Hase, EGM and me usually play a couple of days a week - the CETs and quite some other COOP and/or TDM players usually too. Other regulars seem to play either at other times than me or not that regularly - btw. I'm really wondering what happened to Ente..

But on a grand total I'd say Inf has stabilized a bit from worse times, where you could find people once a week when lucky. Looking forward to seeing you again on a server Very Happy
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Midwinter



Joined: 05 Apr 2008
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Location: Valencia, Spain

PostPosted: 2009-05-03 13:51:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

Played a bit yesterday, but only TDM people were on. Gotta get up to speed again, although I didn't suck as much as I though I would, and managed to get the top spot in a pair of matches.

BTW, count me in for COOP shotgunning (just so I don't stray too much into off-topic land here) :p
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Snakeye



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Graz, Styria, Austria

PostPosted: 2009-05-03 16:57:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

Midwinter wrote:
Played a bit yesterday, but only TDM people were on.

Yeah, Saturday is classic TDM (and sometimes even DTAS) day - sadly I usually don't get to play on weekends. I'll probably be online today from ~2000hrs to when it stops being funny.
Midwinter wrote:
BTW, count me in for COOP shotgunning (just so I don't stray too much into off-topic land here) :p

I don't like reruns - so I'll not ditch into this again; shotguns have their uses and their limitations. When playing alone their limitations are most likely to get you killed [unless you drag around a true primary weapon in addition to the shotgun]; in small teams a shotgun shouldn't be present until two ARs and a MG are, so a solid base firepower is present. When running around with 5+ people basically it doesn't matter much what gets carried around - I bet with enough people you could go pistol only..
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